5 ms·

It's data about data. So, still data. The title may be a bit sensationalized ("your data" sound like "all your data", but it really is "some of your data"), but

by aylons 11y ago

It's data about data. So, still data. The title may be a bit sensationalized ("your data" sound like "all your data", but it really is "some of your data"), but it is not false.

Laaw 11y ago
There's a reason it's not called 'data', is my point. It's false, insofar that it's not the 'data' you give to 1Password.
- johncolanduoni 11y ago
  Do you not give the website your password is used at to 1Password?
  - Laaw 11y ago
    1Password isn't leaking passwords.
    - johncolanduoni 11y ago
      I know, but the website address is still data that I input into the application. My point was that it doesn't only leak fluffy metadata that I don't directly input into the application.
      - Laaw 11y ago
        Well, that's not metadata, it's just data.
        johncolanduoni 11y ago
        ... yes, and that's why your claim that "It's false, insofar that it's not the 'data' you give to 1Password." is wrong. Which was my point. Also, whatever the unusual definition of data you use that results in metadata being excluded is irrelevant (and it is unusual, look up the definition of data in any dictionary). The important part is that 1Password was not making it clear that it does not encrypt certain parts of the "information" you put into it.
        Laaw 11y ago
        I never said what you're claiming I said, all I said was metadata isn't data insofar that it's not the 'data' you give to 1Password. I never said anything specific was or wasn't data. And I'm not using an unusual definition of data, that begs the question. My point is just because it's about you, doesn't mean you own it.
- MaulingMonkey 11y ago
  > There's a reason it's not called 'data', is my point. Is there, actually, in this context? What is the reason you're drawing this distinction? What makes generated passwords 'data', but password reset urls and hand-typed entry names 'metadata'?
  - Laaw 11y ago
    Because people seem to think everything they do on a computer is or should be private. It's not and shouldn't be.
    - MaulingMonkey 11y ago
      What about everything that is expected to be private, can be made private, has security implications for not being private, and has no gains for being public other than "it's slightly less expensive"? Why shouldn't my password reset urls be private? They are... in the password database I use. Why shouldn't my database entry names be private? They are... in the password database I use. Are you saying that these things are metadata in 1Password by virtue of the fact that they weren't secured? Because that would seem like circular reasoning - that you can never leak data, because leaked data is metadata. I don't share your definition of metadata in such a case. Are you saying that these things are metadata in 1Password because they shouldn't be private? I just plain strongly disagree if so. Are you saying that these things are metadata because users shouldn't expect a password database to secure them properly? Then I could at least see where you're coming from. But I don't think it makes sense to tie the definition of metadata to that - among other complaints, I think it lets off companies/software that leak your (meta)data off far too easily, and that such word games absolve them of too much responsibility.
      - Laaw 11y ago
        I didn't say anything of the sort. I said metadata isn't data and just because metadata is about you/your data, doesn't mean you own it. I've been intentionally vague so as to discuss this in more macro terms rather than the specific case as presented here, because I feel there's a panicked "deer in the headlights" attitude that comes with talking about data and metadata, and I'd like to try and help folks think a little more rationally around the topic rather than simply "EVERYTHING RELATED TO ME IS MINE AND NEEDS TO BE ENCRYPTED AND HIDDEN". I regularly forget about how closed-minded the HN userbase is when it comes to privacy.
Laaw 11y ago
Metadata is also not yours in the first place. Data about you or the things you do isn't yours. Does Julian Edelman own the fact that he caught a pass?
- icebraining 11y ago
  How is data stored exclusively on my machines or on my Dropbox account not mine just because it has "meta" as a prefix? It's still data! Public metadata isn't mine. Private metadata is. And in fact, around here it's illegal to record my metadata, even if publicly viewable - anti-piracy groups have been fined for producing databases of IP addresses+shared files taken from the Bittorrent network.
  - Laaw 11y ago
    Some metadata is yours. This metadata isn't, and lots of other metadata isn't yours.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      What part of 1Password's metadata can be considered "not yours"?
      - Laaw 11y ago
        I don't know everything they monitor/measure, but times you've accessed your data would be something that isn't yours, if they collect that.
        icebraining 11y ago
        Why not?
        Laaw 11y ago
        The same reason unicorns and fairies don't exist.

by aylons 11y ago

It's data about data. So, still data. The title may be a bit sensationalized ("your data" sound like "all your data", but it really is "some of your data"), but it is not false.

Laaw 11y ago

There's a reason it's not called 'data', is my point. It's false, insofar that it's not the 'data' you give to 1Password.

johncolanduoni 11y ago
Do you not give the website your password is used at to 1Password?
- Laaw 11y ago
  1Password isn't leaking passwords.
  - johncolanduoni 11y ago
    I know, but the website address is still data that I input into the application. My point was that it doesn't only leak fluffy metadata that I don't directly input into the application.
    - Laaw 11y ago
      Well, that's not metadata, it's just data.
      - johncolanduoni 11y ago
        ... yes, and that's why your claim that "It's false, insofar that it's not the 'data' you give to 1Password." is wrong. Which was my point. Also, whatever the unusual definition of data you use that results in metadata being excluded is irrelevant (and it is unusual, look up the definition of data in any dictionary). The important part is that 1Password was not making it clear that it does not encrypt certain parts of the "information" you put into it.
        Laaw 11y ago
        I never said what you're claiming I said, all I said was metadata isn't data insofar that it's not the 'data' you give to 1Password. I never said anything specific was or wasn't data. And I'm not using an unusual definition of data, that begs the question. My point is just because it's about you, doesn't mean you own it.
MaulingMonkey 11y ago
> There's a reason it's not called 'data', is my point. Is there, actually, in this context? What is the reason you're drawing this distinction? What makes generated passwords 'data', but password reset urls and hand-typed entry names 'metadata'?
- Laaw 11y ago
  Because people seem to think everything they do on a computer is or should be private. It's not and shouldn't be.
  - MaulingMonkey 11y ago
    What about everything that is expected to be private, can be made private, has security implications for not being private, and has no gains for being public other than "it's slightly less expensive"? Why shouldn't my password reset urls be private? They are... in the password database I use. Why shouldn't my database entry names be private? They are... in the password database I use. Are you saying that these things are metadata in 1Password by virtue of the fact that they weren't secured? Because that would seem like circular reasoning - that you can never leak data, because leaked data is metadata. I don't share your definition of metadata in such a case. Are you saying that these things are metadata in 1Password because they shouldn't be private? I just plain strongly disagree if so. Are you saying that these things are metadata because users shouldn't expect a password database to secure them properly? Then I could at least see where you're coming from. But I don't think it makes sense to tie the definition of metadata to that - among other complaints, I think it lets off companies/software that leak your (meta)data off far too easily, and that such word games absolve them of too much responsibility.
    - Laaw 11y ago
      I didn't say anything of the sort. I said metadata isn't data and just because metadata is about you/your data, doesn't mean you own it. I've been intentionally vague so as to discuss this in more macro terms rather than the specific case as presented here, because I feel there's a panicked "deer in the headlights" attitude that comes with talking about data and metadata, and I'd like to try and help folks think a little more rationally around the topic rather than simply "EVERYTHING RELATED TO ME IS MINE AND NEEDS TO BE ENCRYPTED AND HIDDEN". I regularly forget about how closed-minded the HN userbase is when it comes to privacy.

Laaw 11y ago

Metadata is also not yours in the first place. Data about you or the things you do isn't yours. Does Julian Edelman own the fact that he caught a pass?

icebraining 11y ago
How is data stored exclusively on my machines or on my Dropbox account not mine just because it has "meta" as a prefix? It's still data! Public metadata isn't mine. Private metadata is. And in fact, around here it's illegal to record my metadata, even if publicly viewable - anti-piracy groups have been fined for producing databases of IP addresses+shared files taken from the Bittorrent network.
- Laaw 11y ago
  Some metadata is yours. This metadata isn't, and lots of other metadata isn't yours.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    What part of 1Password's metadata can be considered "not yours"?
    - Laaw 11y ago
      I don't know everything they monitor/measure, but times you've accessed your data would be something that isn't yours, if they collect that.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Why not?
        Laaw 11y ago
        The same reason unicorns and fairies don't exist.