5 ms·

German here, living in the US (and liking it here in the US). I can confirm that generally there is a different viewpoint. In Germany prison is somewhat of the

German here, living in the US (and liking it here in the US). I can confirm that generally there is a different viewpoint. In Germany prison is somewhat of the last resort mostly to be avoided, and even then the aspect of rehabilitation (and deterrence) is most important. In the US I find there's often a notion of revenge, as in "This person must suffer for what for (s)he did!"; and more severe sentences usually to be considered as "more justice". Edit: Some spelling for clarity

trhway 11y ago
>In the US I find there's often a notion of revenge US is puritans. Revenge is one of the cornerstones of the puritan moral.
- gdwatson 11y ago
  You should read some Puritans some time. You might be surprised.
- larsiusprime 11y ago
  That's as simplistic as saying Australia is a bunch of criminals. The USA spans a huge continent which was settled by a huge number of very different groups all with different moral and philosophical foundations.
  - justthistime_ 11y ago
    > "But, but ... we play both kinds of music, Country and Western!" Yeah, but somehow it's only one group of people who seems to call the shots: Those with a disdain for the poor, the weak, the ill, the black and women.
  - trhway 11y ago
    No. There is no national party in Australia with a base consisting mainly of criminals. Whereis the US Republican party's base display all the worst characteristics of puritanism, including their "holier than thou" main driving attitude which directly feeds their views on crime and punishment.
    - Thriptic 11y ago
      I can't speak to Republicans' ideas of crime and punishment, but I will say that the US is a place which encourages and fosters individualism strongly as opposed to collectivism (right term?). In a more collectivist / society focused model as you might find in Europe, it makes sense that the focus of prison would be rehabilitation and programs focused on improving the greater good. In a model emphasizing individualism, it makes sense that the focus of prison would be punishment: The offender made certain choices as an individual and has harmed the victim's ability to operate as an individual. The victim therefore has the right to seek justice.
      - trhway 11y ago
        while it sounds logical, the counter-example would be Russia. It has a very collectivist, hive, mentality - completely opposite to US, yet the same focus on punishment (in hellish prisons) instead of rehabilitation. The common though is the "you've sinned -> go to hell" religion. The countries like German are much more secular (as of today), and that naturally results in more humane society, including the criminal punishment policies. It is also noticeable in social economical policies - the approach "you're poor because you're a lazy bum" can be seen as a form of punishment which is a natural view in the US (especially to the religious part of the society) while obviously less so for Germany. Note that such "punishment" is not explicitly inflicted by people, instead it viewed along the lines like "God loves hard working good people (and hates the opposite ones)".
      - pluma 11y ago
        Saying the US "encourages and fosters individualism" is a bit too optimistic. The US also "encourages and fosters" the idea of personal responsibility. Everyone can become a billionaire. If you don't, that's your personal failure. If you commit a crime, that's your own fault and you should be punished for it. If you become unemployed and don't find another job, you're lazy and just don't put in enough effort. If you're poor, again, your fault and how dare you ask for hand-outs? The US doesn't emphasize individualism, it's anti-social.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/ http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-ame... "The Paranoid Style In American Politics" is probably the the best explanation of the fundamental forces that shape most of our politics. Playing to paranoia about "the enemy" has always been a successful tactic, and the war on drugs is simply the latest in a long line of "enemies". "The commies are hiding everywhere" changed into "Gangs are in your town/school/neighborhood trying to get you kids hook on drugs". In modern times, a reasonable number of people see this pattern happening again with the paranoia about anting that looks Arab or Muslim: "We have to keep fighting the terrorists - don't you know that ISIS is hiding everywhere?". Unfortunately, a lot more people are fooled by the rhetoric when a politician starts spreading fear and loathing suggesting that "Those welfare queens are getting rich! It a complete free ride! 99.6% even have refrigerators!".[1] It's an obvious trope once you learn to see it. [1] http://www.cc.com/video-clips/jfmt11/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-world-of-class-warfare---the-poor-s-free-ride-is-over http://www.cc.com/video-clips/jfmt11/the-daily-show-with-jon...
  - A_COMPUTER 11y ago
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/intercepts.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/intercepts.html http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/u-s-grapples-rise-rolling-meth-labs-article-1.1320625 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/u-s-grapples-rise-roll... http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/03/us/mohammed-drawing-contest-shooting/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/03/us/mohammed-drawing-contest-sh... You're twisting "Paranoid Style" to deny the existence of real things. "Paranoid Style" doesn't apply to real things. It applies to "Communists infiltrated our schools to brainwash our kids" and not "communists infiltrated government." It applies to "the crack epidemic was created by the CIA" and not "we have a serious problem with drugs and organized crime in America." It applies to "All Muslims are all practicing taqiya and are working together to invade and undermine the USA" and not "Muslim communities contain extremists that are lying in wait to attack Americans."
wil421 11y ago
Revenge is not what it is its retribution. Especially down in the South and out West in places. In Georgia you can get sentenced to hard labor and in the resent past to a chain gang. A lot of it has religious roots but many laws do too. Recidivism is the biggest problem especially when something like 75% of inmates will be arrested again within 5 years.
- JamesBarney 11y ago
  What's the difference between revenge and retribution?
  - Overtonwindow 11y ago
    Revenge is personal, whereas retribution is societal? They might be the same thing ! Still, it's an interesting point. Prison is revenge for the victims. You can also be retribution by society and the government. One is in response to an emotional desire, the other is a policy response. It's like you can punish your child to teach them a lesson, but not because you hate them.
    - A_COMPUTER 11y ago
      Having the government do it also prevents blood feuds. If you exact revenge, the family might come back for revenge on you.
PavlovsCat 11y ago
I think it also has to do with prison quotas and whatnot, locking people up is plain a business.
- PavlovsCat 11y ago
  I accept the downvotes; I don't think that, I know it. Notice that "a lot" doesn't mean "over 50%", it can also mean "too much for comfort". http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/09/private-prisons-occupancy-quota-cca-crime http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/09/private-prisons-occu... > We are living in boom times for the private prison industry. The Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), the nation's largest owner of private prisons, has seen its revenue climb by more than 500 percent in the last two decades. And CCA wants to get much, much bigger: Last year, the company made an offer to 48 governors to buy and operate their state-funded prisons. But what made CCA's pitch to those governors so audacious and shocking was that it included a so-called occupancy requirement, a clause demanding the state keep those newly privatized prisons at least 90 percent full at all times, regardless of whether crime was rising or falling. > Occupancy requirements, as it turns out, are common practice within the private prison industry. A new report by In the Public Interest, an anti-privatization group, reviewed 62 contracts for private prisons operating around the country at the local and state level. In the Public Interest found that 41 of those contracts included occupancy requirements mandating that local or state government keep those facilities between 80 and 100 percent full. In other words, whether crime is rising or falling, the state must keep those beds full. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/donald-cohen/lockup-quotas-lowcrime-ta_b_3956336.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/donald-cohen/lockup-quotas-low... > In 2012, Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), the largest for-profit prison company in the country, sent a letter to 48 state governors offering to buy their public prisons. CCA offered to buy and operate state prisons in exchange for a 20-year contract, which would include a 90 percent occupancy rate guarantee for the entire term. Essentially, the state would have to guarantee that its prison would be 90 percent filled for the next 20 years (a lockup quota), or pay the company for unused prison beds if the number of inmates dipped below 90 percent capacity at any point during the contract term (a "low-crime tax" that essentially penalizes taxpayers when prison incarceration rates fall). I can't prove that this is related to the private prison industry. But I'm not buying for one second the sudden sharp rise was caused by suddenly increased vengefulness, either. So what gives? https://www.google.com/search?q=us+prison+population+graph https://www.google.com/search?q=us+prison+population+graph
drinchev 11y ago
Legal here. I think that's because of the continental legal system model. Prison in many EU countries is avoided for a lot of reasons, including statistics, which state that crime rate doesn't correlate with punishment as much as social/economy factors. Similar to these Norway has a life-sentence limit of 20 years ( I think ). The idea behind prison in continental legal systems is to serve 2 purposes : 1a. To educate the person that committed the crime that it's actually bad 1b. To frighten the same person before the crime is committed 1c. To prevent the same person to commit a crime before he's re-educated. 2. To educate other potential crime committers what will happen if they do the same. 1a,1b,1c are individual prevention and 2 is general prevention. So ... If one of those can't be met by the punishment then punishment for that crime is not considered.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  > Similar to these Norway has a life-sentence limit of 20 years ( I think ). 21, iirc, but also with a recently added clause that allows them to hold someone for longer (5 year increments) if deemed still a risk (i guess the stress test of that clause is behind bars right now).
superuser2 11y ago
>In the US I find there's often a notion of revenge It's more insidious than that. We just want people we're afraid of out of our daily reality, and we want it cheap. Once we throw someone in prison, our goal is accomplished. Very few people care what happens next, as long as they don't escape. Incarceration is vengeful because the cheapest and most natural way to do it is to lock a bunch of violent people with nothing to lose in the same room and tell a small army to keep them under control. I'd argue we didn't design it to be brutal, we just don't care that it is.
pluma 11y ago
American thinking is still defined by its Puritan origins. Prison is a punishment. Punishment is necessary to be granted forgiveness by god. Prison is basically real-life purgatory and the death penalty is for handling people who are hell-bound. As a German that seems incredibly fucked up.

trhway 11y ago

>In the US I find there's often a notion of revenge US is puritans. Revenge is one of the cornerstones of the puritan moral.

gdwatson 11y ago
You should read some Puritans some time. You might be surprised.
larsiusprime 11y ago
That's as simplistic as saying Australia is a bunch of criminals. The USA spans a huge continent which was settled by a huge number of very different groups all with different moral and philosophical foundations.
- justthistime_ 11y ago
  > "But, but ... we play both kinds of music, Country and Western!" Yeah, but somehow it's only one group of people who seems to call the shots: Those with a disdain for the poor, the weak, the ill, the black and women.
- trhway 11y ago
  No. There is no national party in Australia with a base consisting mainly of criminals. Whereis the US Republican party's base display all the worst characteristics of puritanism, including their "holier than thou" main driving attitude which directly feeds their views on crime and punishment.
  - Thriptic 11y ago
    I can't speak to Republicans' ideas of crime and punishment, but I will say that the US is a place which encourages and fosters individualism strongly as opposed to collectivism (right term?). In a more collectivist / society focused model as you might find in Europe, it makes sense that the focus of prison would be rehabilitation and programs focused on improving the greater good. In a model emphasizing individualism, it makes sense that the focus of prison would be punishment: The offender made certain choices as an individual and has harmed the victim's ability to operate as an individual. The victim therefore has the right to seek justice.
    - trhway 11y ago
      while it sounds logical, the counter-example would be Russia. It has a very collectivist, hive, mentality - completely opposite to US, yet the same focus on punishment (in hellish prisons) instead of rehabilitation. The common though is the "you've sinned -> go to hell" religion. The countries like German are much more secular (as of today), and that naturally results in more humane society, including the criminal punishment policies. It is also noticeable in social economical policies - the approach "you're poor because you're a lazy bum" can be seen as a form of punishment which is a natural view in the US (especially to the religious part of the society) while obviously less so for Germany. Note that such "punishment" is not explicitly inflicted by people, instead it viewed along the lines like "God loves hard working good people (and hates the opposite ones)".
    - pluma 11y ago
      Saying the US "encourages and fosters individualism" is a bit too optimistic. The US also "encourages and fosters" the idea of personal responsibility. Everyone can become a billionaire. If you don't, that's your personal failure. If you commit a crime, that's your own fault and you should be punished for it. If you become unemployed and don't find another job, you're lazy and just don't put in enough effort. If you're poor, again, your fault and how dare you ask for hand-outs? The US doesn't emphasize individualism, it's anti-social.
pdkl95 11y ago
http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/ http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-ame... "The Paranoid Style In American Politics" is probably the the best explanation of the fundamental forces that shape most of our politics. Playing to paranoia about "the enemy" has always been a successful tactic, and the war on drugs is simply the latest in a long line of "enemies". "The commies are hiding everywhere" changed into "Gangs are in your town/school/neighborhood trying to get you kids hook on drugs". In modern times, a reasonable number of people see this pattern happening again with the paranoia about anting that looks Arab or Muslim: "We have to keep fighting the terrorists - don't you know that ISIS is hiding everywhere?". Unfortunately, a lot more people are fooled by the rhetoric when a politician starts spreading fear and loathing suggesting that "Those welfare queens are getting rich! It a complete free ride! 99.6% even have refrigerators!".[1] It's an obvious trope once you learn to see it. [1] http://www.cc.com/video-clips/jfmt11/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-world-of-class-warfare---the-poor-s-free-ride-is-over http://www.cc.com/video-clips/jfmt11/the-daily-show-with-jon...
- A_COMPUTER 11y ago
  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/intercepts.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/intercepts.html http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/u-s-grapples-rise-rolling-meth-labs-article-1.1320625 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/u-s-grapples-rise-roll... http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/03/us/mohammed-drawing-contest-shooting/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/03/us/mohammed-drawing-contest-sh... You're twisting "Paranoid Style" to deny the existence of real things. "Paranoid Style" doesn't apply to real things. It applies to "Communists infiltrated our schools to brainwash our kids" and not "communists infiltrated government." It applies to "the crack epidemic was created by the CIA" and not "we have a serious problem with drugs and organized crime in America." It applies to "All Muslims are all practicing taqiya and are working together to invade and undermine the USA" and not "Muslim communities contain extremists that are lying in wait to attack Americans."

wil421 11y ago

Revenge is not what it is its retribution. Especially down in the South and out West in places. In Georgia you can get sentenced to hard labor and in the resent past to a chain gang. A lot of it has religious roots but many laws do too. Recidivism is the biggest problem especially when something like 75% of inmates will be arrested again within 5 years.

JamesBarney 11y ago
What's the difference between revenge and retribution?
- Overtonwindow 11y ago
  Revenge is personal, whereas retribution is societal? They might be the same thing ! Still, it's an interesting point. Prison is revenge for the victims. You can also be retribution by society and the government. One is in response to an emotional desire, the other is a policy response. It's like you can punish your child to teach them a lesson, but not because you hate them.
  - A_COMPUTER 11y ago
    Having the government do it also prevents blood feuds. If you exact revenge, the family might come back for revenge on you.

PavlovsCat 11y ago

I think it also has to do with prison quotas and whatnot, locking people up is plain a business.

PavlovsCat 11y ago
I accept the downvotes; I don't think that, I know it. Notice that "a lot" doesn't mean "over 50%", it can also mean "too much for comfort". http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/09/private-prisons-occupancy-quota-cca-crime http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/09/private-prisons-occu... > We are living in boom times for the private prison industry. The Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), the nation's largest owner of private prisons, has seen its revenue climb by more than 500 percent in the last two decades. And CCA wants to get much, much bigger: Last year, the company made an offer to 48 governors to buy and operate their state-funded prisons. But what made CCA's pitch to those governors so audacious and shocking was that it included a so-called occupancy requirement, a clause demanding the state keep those newly privatized prisons at least 90 percent full at all times, regardless of whether crime was rising or falling. > Occupancy requirements, as it turns out, are common practice within the private prison industry. A new report by In the Public Interest, an anti-privatization group, reviewed 62 contracts for private prisons operating around the country at the local and state level. In the Public Interest found that 41 of those contracts included occupancy requirements mandating that local or state government keep those facilities between 80 and 100 percent full. In other words, whether crime is rising or falling, the state must keep those beds full. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/donald-cohen/lockup-quotas-lowcrime-ta_b_3956336.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/donald-cohen/lockup-quotas-low... > In 2012, Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), the largest for-profit prison company in the country, sent a letter to 48 state governors offering to buy their public prisons. CCA offered to buy and operate state prisons in exchange for a 20-year contract, which would include a 90 percent occupancy rate guarantee for the entire term. Essentially, the state would have to guarantee that its prison would be 90 percent filled for the next 20 years (a lockup quota), or pay the company for unused prison beds if the number of inmates dipped below 90 percent capacity at any point during the contract term (a "low-crime tax" that essentially penalizes taxpayers when prison incarceration rates fall). I can't prove that this is related to the private prison industry. But I'm not buying for one second the sudden sharp rise was caused by suddenly increased vengefulness, either. So what gives? https://www.google.com/search?q=us+prison+population+graph https://www.google.com/search?q=us+prison+population+graph

drinchev 11y ago

Legal here. I think that's because of the continental legal system model. Prison in many EU countries is avoided for a lot of reasons, including statistics, which state that crime rate doesn't correlate with punishment as much as social/economy factors. Similar to these Norway has a life-sentence limit of 20 years ( I think ). The idea behind prison in continental legal systems is to serve 2 purposes : 1a. To educate the person that committed the crime that it's actually bad 1b. To frighten the same person before the crime is committed 1c. To prevent the same person to commit a crime before he's re-educated. 2. To educate other potential crime committers what will happen if they do the same. 1a,1b,1c are individual prevention and 2 is general prevention. So ... If one of those can't be met by the punishment then punishment for that crime is not considered.

digi_owl 11y ago
> Similar to these Norway has a life-sentence limit of 20 years ( I think ). 21, iirc, but also with a recently added clause that allows them to hold someone for longer (5 year increments) if deemed still a risk (i guess the stress test of that clause is behind bars right now).

superuser2 11y ago

>In the US I find there's often a notion of revenge It's more insidious than that. We just want people we're afraid of out of our daily reality, and we want it cheap. Once we throw someone in prison, our goal is accomplished. Very few people care what happens next, as long as they don't escape. Incarceration is vengeful because the cheapest and most natural way to do it is to lock a bunch of violent people with nothing to lose in the same room and tell a small army to keep them under control. I'd argue we didn't design it to be brutal, we just don't care that it is.

pluma 11y ago

American thinking is still defined by its Puritan origins. Prison is a punishment. Punishment is necessary to be granted forgiveness by god. Prison is basically real-life purgatory and the death penalty is for handling people who are hell-bound. As a German that seems incredibly fucked up.