4 ms·

Could it work? Of course, the data is abundantly clear here. If you treat prisoners like shit, then their chances of recidivism are much higher. If you want to

Could it work? Of course, the data is abundantly clear here. If you treat prisoners like shit, then their chances of recidivism are much higher. If you want to reduce crime, then you have to treat prisoners well. There's really very little controversy here from an academic perspective. The barrier is cultural. The public in the U.S., by and large, expects prisoners to be punished harshly. Retribution and deterrence rank way higher than rehabilitation in terms of the desired outcome of incarceration. As far as the average American is concerned, anything that happens inside of the prison walls, including but not limited to rape, murder, torture, is the price you pay for breaking the law. If we want to have better prisons, then we'll need people to develop some degree of empathy for prisoners, and that's a tough battle in the U.S.

deleted 11y ago
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ams6110 11y ago
If you want to reduce crime, then you have to treat prisoners well. There are no prisoners without there first being criminals.
- fleitz 11y ago
  Nelson Mandela, Allan Turing, and Oscar Wilde might disagree with you on that. To be fair on Mandela the modern US stance is that he should have been assassinated, rather than imprisoned. https://wikileaks.org/cia-hvt-counterinsurgency/press-release.html https://wikileaks.org/cia-hvt-counterinsurgency/press-releas...
  - srtjstjsj 11y ago
    Mandela was at war with the govt of SA, so that's a complicated case.
    - fleitz 11y ago
      He was imprisoned for inciting workers' strikes and leaving the country without permission... it doesn't seem that complicated to me... His charges of overthrowing the government were so baseless they had to be thrown out.
- wanderingstan 11y ago
  First, this assumes there is a perfect justice system to make the determination. Second, you seem to imply that "criminal" is a category, like "Australian" or "blind". The key phrase from OP is "if you want to reduce crime." Maybe you don't want to reduce crime. Maybe revenge and punishment is more important to you. That is a valid viewpoint, but not one I share and i would rather not live in such a society.
- TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
  Criminals exist insofar as society views certain actions as crimes. What to do with criminals is also a social construct. Does the fact that crime exists necessitate prisons? I'd argue that we could choose to do something else other than incarcerate criminals. It shouldn't be hard to imagine at least a few ways prisons could be obviated.
- CyberDildonics 11y ago
  Everyone in the US is a criminal somehow.
- d357r0y3r 11y ago
  > There are no prisoners without there first being criminals. Not necessarily true, but assuming it is true, the most likely future criminals are past criminals. There's no single group more likely to commit crime then those that are released from prison. It follows that one of our best returns on investment is reducing criminality in that group.
cooper12 11y ago
Great point. In a way there's a kind of "monsterization" of prisoners. They obviously hurt someone and broke the social contract to end up there right? As children our immediate response to wrongdoing is violence because that's the only way we know how to deal with it; she took my toy, thus I will hit her for taking it. However as adults we learn that punishment isn't always apt, hence the decreased popularity of corporal punishment. It's asking a lot of people to make them separate their personal feelings from policy changes, and as the article shows, in America there isn't really a buffer between informed decision-makers and the general public. Imagine we let citizens replace the FDA, instead of controlled studies we'd get people reporting how something makes them feel or how a relative of a relative said so-and-so is good for them. Lastly the whole image of a criminal and the prison system is wrong: they're often portrayed in media as tattooed scumbags and there are constant jokes about "dropping the soap" and getting raped in the ass. It points towards a huge dehumanization; imagine we talked about others like that, saying things like they're getting what they deserved. Prison itself has replaced rehabilitation and it entails immoral treatment from guards and fellow inmates.
- d357r0y3r 11y ago
  > Lastly the whole image of a criminal and the prison system is wrong: they're often portrayed in media as tattooed scumbags and there are constant jokes about "dropping the soap" and getting raped in the ass. It points towards a huge dehumanization; imagine we talked about others like that, saying things like they're getting what they deserved. Prison itself has replaced rehabilitation and it entails immoral treatment from guards and fellow inmates. There was a time when this was more or less my sentiment. Then I went to a prison and met some inmates. Turns out, most prisoners are decent enough men that fucked up, usually because of desperation or drug induced mania. Almost all of the inmates I spoke with at length feel a deep sense of shame and obligation to right their wrongs. Many inmates, when given the opportunity, would like to leave prison in a better state than they arrived, i.e. with marketable job skills and the ability to resist their old ways (drugs, alcohol, crime, etc).
- Thriptic 11y ago
  I agree that prisoners are unfairly stereotyped, and that we employ systems in the US which set up negative feedback loops which almost guarantee recidivism. These should be dealt with. We should have better job training and counseling while inside, better education programs, better control over violence (if this is possible), and possibly wipe public records clean when certain criminals are released. With that being said, I personally believe that prison needs to have some sort of punishment aspect to it or people won't buy into it. If the general perception is that "justice" is not being served when crimes are committed, my guess is that extra-judicial reprisals will start to occur.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ams6110 11y ago

If you want to reduce crime, then you have to treat prisoners well. There are no prisoners without there first being criminals.

fleitz 11y ago
Nelson Mandela, Allan Turing, and Oscar Wilde might disagree with you on that. To be fair on Mandela the modern US stance is that he should have been assassinated, rather than imprisoned. https://wikileaks.org/cia-hvt-counterinsurgency/press-release.html https://wikileaks.org/cia-hvt-counterinsurgency/press-releas...
- srtjstjsj 11y ago
  Mandela was at war with the govt of SA, so that's a complicated case.
  - fleitz 11y ago
    He was imprisoned for inciting workers' strikes and leaving the country without permission... it doesn't seem that complicated to me... His charges of overthrowing the government were so baseless they had to be thrown out.
wanderingstan 11y ago
First, this assumes there is a perfect justice system to make the determination. Second, you seem to imply that "criminal" is a category, like "Australian" or "blind". The key phrase from OP is "if you want to reduce crime." Maybe you don't want to reduce crime. Maybe revenge and punishment is more important to you. That is a valid viewpoint, but not one I share and i would rather not live in such a society.
TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
Criminals exist insofar as society views certain actions as crimes. What to do with criminals is also a social construct. Does the fact that crime exists necessitate prisons? I'd argue that we could choose to do something else other than incarcerate criminals. It shouldn't be hard to imagine at least a few ways prisons could be obviated.
CyberDildonics 11y ago
Everyone in the US is a criminal somehow.
d357r0y3r 11y ago
> There are no prisoners without there first being criminals. Not necessarily true, but assuming it is true, the most likely future criminals are past criminals. There's no single group more likely to commit crime then those that are released from prison. It follows that one of our best returns on investment is reducing criminality in that group.

cooper12 11y ago

Great point. In a way there's a kind of "monsterization" of prisoners. They obviously hurt someone and broke the social contract to end up there right? As children our immediate response to wrongdoing is violence because that's the only way we know how to deal with it; she took my toy, thus I will hit her for taking it. However as adults we learn that punishment isn't always apt, hence the decreased popularity of corporal punishment. It's asking a lot of people to make them separate their personal feelings from policy changes, and as the article shows, in America there isn't really a buffer between informed decision-makers and the general public. Imagine we let citizens replace the FDA, instead of controlled studies we'd get people reporting how something makes them feel or how a relative of a relative said so-and-so is good for them. Lastly the whole image of a criminal and the prison system is wrong: they're often portrayed in media as tattooed scumbags and there are constant jokes about "dropping the soap" and getting raped in the ass. It points towards a huge dehumanization; imagine we talked about others like that, saying things like they're getting what they deserved. Prison itself has replaced rehabilitation and it entails immoral treatment from guards and fellow inmates.

d357r0y3r 11y ago
> Lastly the whole image of a criminal and the prison system is wrong: they're often portrayed in media as tattooed scumbags and there are constant jokes about "dropping the soap" and getting raped in the ass. It points towards a huge dehumanization; imagine we talked about others like that, saying things like they're getting what they deserved. Prison itself has replaced rehabilitation and it entails immoral treatment from guards and fellow inmates. There was a time when this was more or less my sentiment. Then I went to a prison and met some inmates. Turns out, most prisoners are decent enough men that fucked up, usually because of desperation or drug induced mania. Almost all of the inmates I spoke with at length feel a deep sense of shame and obligation to right their wrongs. Many inmates, when given the opportunity, would like to leave prison in a better state than they arrived, i.e. with marketable job skills and the ability to resist their old ways (drugs, alcohol, crime, etc).
Thriptic 11y ago
I agree that prisoners are unfairly stereotyped, and that we employ systems in the US which set up negative feedback loops which almost guarantee recidivism. These should be dealt with. We should have better job training and counseling while inside, better education programs, better control over violence (if this is possible), and possibly wipe public records clean when certain criminals are released. With that being said, I personally believe that prison needs to have some sort of punishment aspect to it or people won't buy into it. If the general perception is that "justice" is not being served when crimes are committed, my guess is that extra-judicial reprisals will start to occur.