4 ms·

I know the argument about noone but techies being able to see the advantages of using lisp, but I think it puts hackers on a piedestal where they don't belong.

by mixmax 19y ago

I know the argument about noone but techies being able to see the advantages of using lisp, but I think it puts hackers on a piedestal where they don't belong. Basically the argument implies that management types won't use lisp because they don't understand it. Well they don't understand java either. Or C++. What they do understand though is finding the fastest and cheapest way to a product - that is what they do for a living. If lisp was so great then surely some smart manager would have noticed that "hey look over there, they have 3 guys working on something that we have 30 guys working on - and they are doing better" And management is all about getting the most value for the least resources. If you think of managers as the Dilbertesque pointy haired boss, then sure. But I think you (and PG) grossly underestimate the intelligence of management, and what it is that they do.

pchristensen 19y ago
I think an open minded boss (assuming his hands aren't tied by someone above him) would entertain Lisp for a pilot or internal project if: 1) you could show good examples of successful projects done by comparable teams 2) you could demonstrate the ability to hire/train people to develop/maintain it Am I being too optimistic? I put in lots of qualifiers to make it more realistic.
- mixmax 19y ago
  >assuming his hands aren't tied by someone above him That is probably often the problem. Also since nowadays almost all software has to interface with other software there is probably a case of Nash equilibrium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium (this other software we have to talk to is written in java, so let's write this piece of software in java too)
- geebee 19y ago
  Eh, maybe. If the Lisp programmers are truly talented, and this is truly a contrarian play, then you might have to let go of the comparable project/team requirement. As for hiring people to develop and maintain... well, this is probably why it doesn't work for the usual boss/employee relationship. The employee may quit a job. But if the employee is a founder or has tons and tons of equity, he'd be quitting on himself. He will go to the mat to save the company. He will bust a vessel in his eye before he'll let it fail. Yes, he may end up sprawled out on the mat with a broken eye vessel, but that's the price of freedom, right? ;)
geebee 19y ago
Perhaps so - like I said, I'm not absolutely sure Lisp is the way to go. But if it is, this isn't just a crisp $20 nobody has bothered to pick up, it's the mother lode. But I do disagree just a bit with your statement that managers look for the fastest and cheapest way to a product. THey look for the fastest and cheapest way available to them as managers. Those three guys probably aren't willing to work for a management type. You could throw money at them, but then you become an investor, not a boss. Which is probably a better deal for you, too. This is another recurrent theme in PGs essays. The boss/employee relationship doesn't really work. But the investor/founder relationship works brilliantly.

by mixmax 19y ago

pchristensen 19y ago

I think an open minded boss (assuming his hands aren't tied by someone above him) would entertain Lisp for a pilot or internal project if: 1) you could show good examples of successful projects done by comparable teams 2) you could demonstrate the ability to hire/train people to develop/maintain it Am I being too optimistic? I put in lots of qualifiers to make it more realistic.

mixmax 19y ago
>assuming his hands aren't tied by someone above him That is probably often the problem. Also since nowadays almost all software has to interface with other software there is probably a case of Nash equilibrium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium (this other software we have to talk to is written in java, so let's write this piece of software in java too)
geebee 19y ago
Eh, maybe. If the Lisp programmers are truly talented, and this is truly a contrarian play, then you might have to let go of the comparable project/team requirement. As for hiring people to develop and maintain... well, this is probably why it doesn't work for the usual boss/employee relationship. The employee may quit a job. But if the employee is a founder or has tons and tons of equity, he'd be quitting on himself. He will go to the mat to save the company. He will bust a vessel in his eye before he'll let it fail. Yes, he may end up sprawled out on the mat with a broken eye vessel, but that's the price of freedom, right? ;)

geebee 19y ago

Perhaps so - like I said, I'm not absolutely sure Lisp is the way to go. But if it is, this isn't just a crisp $20 nobody has bothered to pick up, it's the mother lode. But I do disagree just a bit with your statement that managers look for the fastest and cheapest way to a product. THey look for the fastest and cheapest way available to them as managers. Those three guys probably aren't willing to work for a management type. You could throw money at them, but then you become an investor, not a boss. Which is probably a better deal for you, too. This is another recurrent theme in PGs essays. The boss/employee relationship doesn't really work. But the investor/founder relationship works brilliantly.