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>The exchange began with host Anderson Cooper asking Lincoln Chafee, a former governor of Rhode Island, “Governor Chafee: Edward Snowden, is he a traitor or a h

>The exchange began with host Anderson Cooper asking Lincoln Chafee, a former governor of Rhode Island, “Governor Chafee: Edward Snowden, is he a traitor or a hero?” The answer really should be "both." Snowden supporters readily tout his commendable whistle-blowing of unlawful domestic intelligence gathering while at the same time ignoring, denying, or outright excusing stuff like this: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/nsa-breached-chinese-servers-seen-as-spy-peril.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/nsa-breached-ch... Snowden fled first to China and then afterwards to Russia with as much as a terabyte of classified information, at least some of which--specifically information concerning intelligence operations the NSA conducted against Huawei--we know for a fact he shared with them. Even William Binney, another NSA whistle-blower (who, by contrast, did not seek asylum in two separate major geopolitical adversaries of the US), criticized Snowden's subsequent leaks: >But now he is starting to talk about things like the government hacking into China and all this kind of thing. He is going a little bit too far. I don't think he had access to that program. But somebody talked to him about it, and so he said, from what I have read, anyway, he said that somebody, a reliable source, told him that the U.S. government is hacking into all these countries. But that's not a public service, and now he is going a little beyond public service. >So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowd... While Binney has since referred to Snowden as a "patriot," he has yet to publicly disavow his past criticisms of Snowden: http://www.businessinsider.com/william-binney-and-edward-snowden-2014-10?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/william-binney-and-edward-sno...

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
I'm not sure what your implication is with the linked article about Huawei.
- throwaway1150 11y ago
  >The agency pried its way into the servers in Huawei’s sealed headquarters in Shenzhen, China’s industrial heart, according to N.S.A. documents provided by the former contractor Edward J. Snowden
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    The article didn't make it clear whether these were part of the wholesale leaks, or directly traded by Snowden. The implications would differ depending on how they were transmitted. What's more is that the operation involves a clear cut act of economic warfare that ensnares U.S. allies as collateral, so it's not like this is an open and shut case in favor of the NSA. It's quite ethically ambiguous. I also don't see how "but Binney said" is remotely persuasive. Binney himself was the advocate of a bulk collection and analysis system named ThinThread, this aside from the generally dubious nature of arguments from authority.
    - throwaway1150 11y ago
      >the operation involves a clear cut act of economic warfare What act of "economic warfare" are you referring to? Huawei's much-publicized theft of source code from CISCO? Unless you have actual evidence of the NSA passing on the intelligence it gathered to domestic firms, you have little basis for characterizing their efforts to ascertain the extent of Huawei's relationship with the Chinese government and PLA as "economic warfare." If anyone but Snowden leaked this sort of information to the Chinese or Russians, there would be little debate about whether or not they deserved some sort of punishment for it. Snowden's American supporters come across as shrill or even perfidious for excusing this conduct.
      - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        I'm not an American. Again, your presenting the case as being some mere reconnaissance operation to "ascertain the extent of Huawei's relationship with the Chinese government" is quite overloaded itself, since the linked article did mention exploiting products en masse with one of the aims being to roam in foreign countries' telecom networks by the proxy of Huawei products, and this including U.S. allies. This goes beyond information gathering and recon, and yes, could be construed as economic warfare (this does not at all imply a value judgment, but you seem to be taking the term as if it's a pejorative). Hell, the fact you brought up source code theft only strengthens such a description. If anyone but Snowden leaked this sort of information to the Chinese or Russians, there would be little debate about whether or not they deserved some sort of punishment for it. Again, you didn't state whether these were part of the leaks, or whether Snowden had specifically handed over information to a nation state. The connotations would be quite different depending on how it was revealed. This strengthened by the case not necessarily being in favor of the NSA, your emotional pleas notwithstanding.
mixmastamyk 11y ago
He didn't flee to Russia, he was stopped there in transit.
- BookmarkSaver 11y ago
  You seriously believe that? You're willing to buy that explanation but not the far more reasonably alternatives? I mean ffs, he was claiming to be going from China to South America. Via a connection that just happened to go through Moscow of all places. Even Russia initially claimed that they had no evidence of his final destination. I cannot believe how so many people are so gullible as to imagine that ending up in Russia wasn't intentional.
  - gmoore 11y ago
    Do you have any evidence for this assertion - or are you just smarter than everyone else?
  - mixmastamyk 11y ago
    Yes, if I remember correctly his passport was revoked during the flight. There are not so many flights from Asia to South America, and many that do transit in Los Angeles, or other countries with extradition treaties. Do you have any concrete info?
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - csandreasen 11y ago
      His passport was revoked the day before he left Hong Kong.[1]. He traveled to Russia on what turned out to be an invalid travel document issued by the Ecuadorian embassy in London [2] (same one that Julian Assange is holed up in). [1] http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-nsa-leaker-snowdens-passport-revoked http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-nsa-leaker-snowdens... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/02/ecuador-rafael-correa-snowden-mistake http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/02/ecuador-rafael-...
naasking 11y ago
> at least some of which--specifically information concerning intelligence operations the NSA conducted against Huawei--we know for a fact he shared with them. Where is the evidence of this alleged fact?
- edc117 11y ago
  I'd like to know too, I've heard this trotted out several times, and never seen anything to corroborate it. The story has remained consistent - when he left, he no longer had anything left to give, it was in the hands of journalists. (Why would he walk into an 'enemy' country loaded up with sensitive data anyways? Blatantly stupid) This just stinks of astroturf or poorly-thought out demonizing.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

I'm not sure what your implication is with the linked article about Huawei.

throwaway1150 11y ago
>The agency pried its way into the servers in Huawei’s sealed headquarters in Shenzhen, China’s industrial heart, according to N.S.A. documents provided by the former contractor Edward J. Snowden
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  The article didn't make it clear whether these were part of the wholesale leaks, or directly traded by Snowden. The implications would differ depending on how they were transmitted. What's more is that the operation involves a clear cut act of economic warfare that ensnares U.S. allies as collateral, so it's not like this is an open and shut case in favor of the NSA. It's quite ethically ambiguous. I also don't see how "but Binney said" is remotely persuasive. Binney himself was the advocate of a bulk collection and analysis system named ThinThread, this aside from the generally dubious nature of arguments from authority.
  - throwaway1150 11y ago
    >the operation involves a clear cut act of economic warfare What act of "economic warfare" are you referring to? Huawei's much-publicized theft of source code from CISCO? Unless you have actual evidence of the NSA passing on the intelligence it gathered to domestic firms, you have little basis for characterizing their efforts to ascertain the extent of Huawei's relationship with the Chinese government and PLA as "economic warfare." If anyone but Snowden leaked this sort of information to the Chinese or Russians, there would be little debate about whether or not they deserved some sort of punishment for it. Snowden's American supporters come across as shrill or even perfidious for excusing this conduct.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      I'm not an American. Again, your presenting the case as being some mere reconnaissance operation to "ascertain the extent of Huawei's relationship with the Chinese government" is quite overloaded itself, since the linked article did mention exploiting products en masse with one of the aims being to roam in foreign countries' telecom networks by the proxy of Huawei products, and this including U.S. allies. This goes beyond information gathering and recon, and yes, could be construed as economic warfare (this does not at all imply a value judgment, but you seem to be taking the term as if it's a pejorative). Hell, the fact you brought up source code theft only strengthens such a description. If anyone but Snowden leaked this sort of information to the Chinese or Russians, there would be little debate about whether or not they deserved some sort of punishment for it. Again, you didn't state whether these were part of the leaks, or whether Snowden had specifically handed over information to a nation state. The connotations would be quite different depending on how it was revealed. This strengthened by the case not necessarily being in favor of the NSA, your emotional pleas notwithstanding.

mixmastamyk 11y ago

He didn't flee to Russia, he was stopped there in transit.

BookmarkSaver 11y ago
You seriously believe that? You're willing to buy that explanation but not the far more reasonably alternatives? I mean ffs, he was claiming to be going from China to South America. Via a connection that just happened to go through Moscow of all places. Even Russia initially claimed that they had no evidence of his final destination. I cannot believe how so many people are so gullible as to imagine that ending up in Russia wasn't intentional.
- gmoore 11y ago
  Do you have any evidence for this assertion - or are you just smarter than everyone else?
- mixmastamyk 11y ago
  Yes, if I remember correctly his passport was revoked during the flight. There are not so many flights from Asia to South America, and many that do transit in Los Angeles, or other countries with extradition treaties. Do you have any concrete info?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - csandreasen 11y ago
    His passport was revoked the day before he left Hong Kong.[1]. He traveled to Russia on what turned out to be an invalid travel document issued by the Ecuadorian embassy in London [2] (same one that Julian Assange is holed up in). [1] http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-nsa-leaker-snowdens-passport-revoked http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-nsa-leaker-snowdens... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/02/ecuador-rafael-correa-snowden-mistake http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/02/ecuador-rafael-...

naasking 11y ago

> at least some of which--specifically information concerning intelligence operations the NSA conducted against Huawei--we know for a fact he shared with them. Where is the evidence of this alleged fact?

edc117 11y ago
I'd like to know too, I've heard this trotted out several times, and never seen anything to corroborate it. The story has remained consistent - when he left, he no longer had anything left to give, it was in the hands of journalists. (Why would he walk into an 'enemy' country loaded up with sensitive data anyways? Blatantly stupid) This just stinks of astroturf or poorly-thought out demonizing.