15 ms·

Microsoft Removes the Option to Opt Out of Windows 10 Free Upgrade?

138 points by sanqui 11y ago

AdmiralAsshat 11y ago
Old and inaccurate: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/windows-10-upgrade-installing-automatically-on-some-windows-7-8-systems/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/window... Microsoft has said the force push was a mistake. I suppose you could argue their sincerity on that, but the fact remains that they did remove it.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  That was about Windows Update "mistakenly" installing Windows 10. The OP is about GWX removing the option to delay the upgrade.
  - WorldWideWayne 11y ago
    I wonder how all of the Microsoft haters who think this is "not a mistake" feel about other conspiracy theories? What do you know about lizard people?
    - compbio 11y ago
      You may be interested in this older documentary: https://youtu.be/DfsK6DuNhnc?t=2208 https://youtu.be/DfsK6DuNhnc?t=2208 about the psychology of conspiracy theorists. The psychologists claim that they can predict who will believe in conspiracy theories, and they use as a dividing test the following question to separate conspiracy theorists from healthy trustful people: "The government is using mobile phone technology to track people all the time. Yes/No." Also includes an interview with David Icke. I don't think that question is decisive anymore...
      - tux3 11y ago
        It's a pretty sad world when the conspiracy "nutjobs" turn out to be right..
        togusa 11y ago
        Don't worry there's still plenty of wrong out there to be ( www.abovetopsecret.com )
      - WorldWideWayne 11y ago
        I thought my comment above would have played better to the crowd here, who always seemed to be strongly anti-conspiracy theory since they always wanted to mis-apply things like Occam's Razor and other such heuristics, in a debate. Maybe the tide has finally turned. I just like Microsoft and don't get all the hate for them, so I tried branding someone as a conspiracy theorist to see what would happen. Interesting results... I actually fall into the group of people who can see the possibility of conspiracy everywhere. While I don't believe in lizard people, I do believe in the strong possibility that the US gov't was at least partly behind 9/11. Matter of fact - I believe the lizard people story was put out there to make conspiracy theorists look ridiculous. I also believe, for instance, that the CIA runs the illicit drug trade...and I believe that Mao Zedong was a controlled assets of the western elite, just like China is today and that this will all culminate into a really scary new world order with China as the only superpower. My favorite thing about being a conspiracy theorist is that it has actually freed my mind up a bit because I don't sweat the small stuff so much anymore and I have fully accepted the fact that I am going to die one day since I have spent so much time thinking about all the ways I'm going to get killed by the Illuminati :)
        compbio 11y ago
        I think you got downvoted not so much because HN believes in conspiracy theories, but because the lizard people remark was a bit of a rude put-down. I very much like Microsoft too, but I also get the hate. Even this move of nagging you to update to Win10 seems to come out of the brain of marketeers, not engineers. When companies get big enough, they often lose some of their engineering/academic spirit to commercial thinking. Understandable, but annoying, as it becomes less about building a great product, but more about building great profits. I do not think the US gov had anything to do with 9/11. I think they just didn't share information correctly and it could have been avoided (dropped the ball). I am always a bit mystified when Americans say that 9/11 was an inside job. If true, their government would be directly responsible for the deaths of 1000s. That should cause riots, not conspiracy theory forums. I think 9/11 conspiracy theories are interesting, because I have a conspiracy theory that most of these theories are propagated by the Middle East (shift the blame) and Russia (destabilize US politics, comparable to Operation INFEKTION, where they tried to paint the US as creating AIDS). I think the lizard people are the product of a troubled mind and plain old antisemitism. In an allegorical sense it may hold some truths though. The crack cocaine flights of the CIA are no theory anymore, these have been pretty much confirmed, culminating in the "suicide" of Gary Webb by two(!) bullets to the head. I like Robert Anton Wilson when he says that belief in the Illuminati is driven by our current information overload: The brain wants to make sense of it all, and that is easier when you picture an evil force behind the curtains pulling the strings. But also that there simply are a lot of people conspiring to do evil things (for instance the P2 lodge). So it is a balance between reality and psychology. My favorite thing about conspiracy theories is that it allows you to draw all sorts of connections. It's a form of data analysis to occupy the mind with, only bounded by your imagination. I think the China-themed conspiracy theories are very US-centric. Europe seems less afraid of China as a competitor, decreasing the popularity and adoption of such theories.
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Thus far I have been spared the plague because my Boot Camp partition has less than a gigabyte of free space, so Microsoft can't install Windows 10 for me even if they want to.
jrockway 11y ago
On the one hand, Microsoft gets criticized for abandoning millions of machines by dropping support for XP. Then, Microsoft gets criticized for not letting that happen with Windows 7 and 8 by keeping them up to date. Do people tend to complain about Chrome's auto updates?
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  OS upgrades aren't directly comparable to automatically-updating software. They bring big changes and break compatibility. In the case of Windows 10, it merges two UI paradigms together. When software updates itself, it doesn't typically hop to the next major version, anyway. Chrome and evergreen software like it are exceptions. This is especially true for Windows, which doesn't have a seamless upgrade process.
  - ksml 11y ago
    Not only is there an issue of the user interface changing significantly, but there are also driver issues when manufacturers are slow to release updated drivers (big problems for older devices). Anecdotal, but I have heard many people complain of increased blue screens.
- sigmar 11y ago
  There is middle ground that you aren't considering: give people an option to update. They didn't give that option to people with xp, and they aren't giving that option to people with windows 7.
- userbinator 11y ago
  Do people tend to complain about Chrome's auto updates? I'd bet most of those are minor bugfixes which don't change behaviour drastically, but fix things like exploits. Most people won't even notice any changes and they can keep using the software like they used to.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    And when Chrome and such do add stuff, any changes are gradual and unobtrusive. In a sense there is only one "major version" of Chrome and it is continually subtly changing. On the other hand, operating systems and most software have distinct major versions and automatic updates only happen within those versions.
everyone 11y ago
I'm assuming this didnt apply to enterprise customers? The move from xp to 7 was a big deal for IT departments everywhere. I cant imagine them moving on from 7 anytime soon.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  GWX is very consumer-focussed, I'd be surprised if it was even installed on enterprise Windows versions.
- stephengillie 11y ago
  Windows 7/8/8.1 Enterprise don't have the upgrade option. I installed Win8 Enterprise over a year ago, it's never mentioned an upgrade.
- togusa 11y ago
  It's even worse for some enterprise with VL agreements like us. We have a 1 year window to get everyone on windows 10 from the release date. Needless to say a few macs and centos boxes have made an appearance and everyone suddenly knows python. I'm making the jump when 7.2 drops and moving to windows in a VM.
- everyone 11y ago
  ps. I only use windows for games (which is super-important for me. I'm ready to jump entirely to Linux at a moments notice)
userbinator 11y ago
While switching to a new OS, especially Windows 10 is definitely a good move Microsoft would certainly promote that view, but is it really? Am I one of the minority of users who prefers a stable environment customised exactly as I want it, instead of "latest and greatest"?
- probably_wrong 11y ago
  I was lucky enough to be around when my parents had to upgrade their computer, because it took a long time to customize everything in such a way they could find what they need without drowning in a sea of useless icons. I don't even want to think what would happen if they called me out of the blue because that upgrade happened without their knowledge, and they can't find anything anymore.
- maratd 11y ago
  Disable the Windows Update service. Microsoft will never bother you again and you can have your exact, perfected experience for all eternity.
  - sigzero 11y ago
    As your system becomes a zombie on some bot-net.
    - fwn 11y ago
      He gave a solution for a specific problem. The "but your whole security will break down if you miss a year of security updates" argument is lazy and counterfactual.
    - walterbell 11y ago
      Security-only updates can be installed manually, after careful review.
  - pcunite 11y ago
    I had to buy a shovel a few years ago. It was so nice with the modern construction and materials. Much better than what my dad and I used when I was a kid helping him with chores. But you know what? I didn't have to re-learn anything! It just worked. It was a cool new color, felt better, actually helped me dig better, but the functionality it provided and the user experience was largely the same. Modern software companies will "have" to understand this and tell their designers to go for a long walk. Software is too important to simply say, "Everything has changed! Surprise!" Most people don't care about software "changes" about like I don't care how the engine in my car works. Just make it go. Fix it, improve it, make it safer, blah blah ... but don't make me do something different because your designers are bored with consistency.
peeters 11y ago
> While switching to a new OS, especially Windows 10 is definitely a good move Who is claiming this? Maybe for hardware known to have good Windows 10 support it's a good move. For me, I've had more blue screens in the last month than I had in the 10 years before that. Lots of poor driver support (fingerprint reader doesn't work, touchpad reverts settings after every boot, crashes). The user experience is an upgrade from my perspective, but the upgrade has been anything but painless.
- scrollaway 11y ago
  When I installed windows 10 last week I had the .. pleasure... to look at the various privacy options. During the installation, Windows uses weasel words to present the user with privacy settings hiding the option to change them at all. Take a look: https://jonathan.porta.codes/images/posts/2015/07/window-10-privacy-settings-1.png https://jonathan.porta.codes/images/posts/2015/07/window-10-... In "express settings": * Send contact, calendar and input data to Microsoft * Send typing and inking data to Microsoft * Let apps use your Advertising ID for "experiences across apps" (I'm not making this shit up) * Send microsoft and "trusted partners" location data * Turn on SmartScreen (Admittedly I don't know exactly how it works but seeing as it's in those options I can take a horrifying guess on the implications) * Send your browsing data to Microsoft to "make your overall experience better" (WTF wording) * Autoconnect to shared networks * Autoconnect to suggested open hotspots Damn. And then, one that's not in there which you have to find for yourself, if you even know about it: P2P share windows updates with any windows computer on the internet. Ho-ly-crap. I like W10 as an OS so far but this stuff is just insane. BTW, the only reason I went with W10 was that W7 doesn't support GPT. Sources: http://www.howtogeek.com/224352/what%E2%80%99s-the-difference-between-windows-10%E2%80%99s-express-or-custom-setup/ http://www.howtogeek.com/224352/what%E2%80%99s-the-differenc... http://www.howtogeek.com/224981/how-to-stop-windows-10-from-uploading-updates-to-other-pcs-over-the-internet/ http://www.howtogeek.com/224981/how-to-stop-windows-10-from-... Edit: Yikes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SmartScreen#SmartScreen_in_Windows_8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SmartScreen#SmartScr...
  - brazzledazzle 11y ago
ferongr 11y ago
Personally after KB3035583 that I had hidden before, was re-enabled and installed automatically, I started feeling bothered by that fact. That was the final push that led me to nuking my Windows 7 partition and jumping to Xubuntu GNU/Linux.
- thom 11y ago
  I'm getting _so_ bored of having to click on every knowledge base article to see exactly what each of the updates do, in order to hide (week after week) the two or three that try and sneak Get Windows 10 in. I'm getting less and less likely to install _any_ updates.
- leke 11y ago
  Ah, so I wasn't the only one that had this happen. I thought I was going crazy for a while.
- macns 11y ago
  Happened to me too yesterday on fresh windows 7 SP1 x64 install. Why let the user hide it if you're going to unhide it again later ?
pcunite 11y ago
My concern with Windows 10, and I expect it to get addressed, is having a platform underneath me keep changing. I don't want to get in my car one day and find out that the gas pedal has changed positions with the brake. I expect my OS to be just as consistent in this regard. So, for me, I need a way to say, "I don't ever want to upgrade automatically. I'll upgrade when I'm ready".
- d2xdy2 11y ago
  On a tangent, how do you feel about Tesla doing OTA updates for core functionality on their cars? Stuff like "autopilot" and whatnot.
  - xeromal 11y ago
    The difference is that for their new features like autopilot, you actually pay for the upgrade like DLC.
  - pcunite 11y ago
    In this specific instance, it sounds like an "extra" and not a "change". So, I would be okay with that. However, I don't own a Tesla so I can't say for sure. For me personally, I don't want upgrades that throw away all my muscle memory in the name of "design". As more and more people enter the software development ecosystem, they're going to need to learn (the hard way) that sometimes "boring" is the right thing to do.
    - cma 11y ago
      The update also apparently changed the dashboard and rearranged common things like your current speed.
- xiler 11y ago
  Despite the totality of his radical opinions, this to me seems like one of RMS's more valid arguments against non-Libre software. Especially when it comes to something fundamental like an OS, being at the mercy of a corporation is highly problematic.
xamuel 11y ago
Up until 2013 or so, I was always a PC guy. I wanted to be a PC guy. But Microsoft did, and continues to do, everything in their power to change my mind about that. I still have one old laptop running Windows 7, the instant they force-upgrade that is the instant I bid adieu to the last remnant of Microsoft in my home computing life.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Speaking of which, using the term "PC" to describe x86 Windows machines somewhat compatible with IBM PC standards (a.k.a. "Wintel") desperately needs to die.
  - pvdebbe 11y ago
    Yes. It is infuriating to hear the phrase "PC or linux"
Asmod4n 11y ago
This "free" upgrade is currently disabled on "Pro" Versions of Windows. If anything like this happens on those versions a lot of business might get into trouble.
- stephengillie 11y ago
  Enterprise version, actually. Pro still pushes the upgrade.
a3n 11y ago
I wonder if the license allows this. "We can arbitrarily change the OS version that you are running." Since you bought (a license) for Windows 7, I would think if Windows 10 degrades your experience sufficiently, you might prevail in small claims court.
davnicwil 11y ago
I may have some of the facts wrong here, but I think this means that upgraded systems will also start to run Microsoft's evergreen browser Edge, in place of IE, as the default browser. It seems like this aspect, at least, could be a very good thing. Thinking about the very non-technical and casual user who uses the default IE and doesn't upgrade/switch for no particular reason other than some mixture of doesn't know it'll be better/afraid of breaking something/doesn't know how. It'll just kill all those IE 8s/9s/10s still running out there that, really, should be replaced. Yes, it's a little brute force, but I can't see this being anything other than a good thing for (the vast majority of) these users and for developers.
- geerlingguy 11y ago
  ...Except that Edge is the new IE, in some bad ways. Sure, many bugs and missing features will be fixed and added in the coming months/years, but there are already a number of hacks that need to be made to properly support Edge with similar functionality as FF, Chrome and Safari. All that's old is new.
  - jimueller 11y ago
    No, what's new is that those bugs and missing features will get fixed without an OS service pack / release.
- lucb1e 11y ago
  > I can't see this being anything other than a good thing for (the vast majority of) these users and for developers. For developers? I think they are quite capable of deciding for themselves. For users? Here I can see where you're coming from, but let's think this through: - Some users know how stuff works. They'll upgrade when they want to, no need to force them. - Some users have no clue about how stuff works, but they know someone who does (e.g. my grandma and me). If there would be an opt-out of this forced upgrade, that someone (me) could perform that on their computer and upgrade them when they're ready. But there is no opt out, so instead they (me) will have a hell of an explaining job on their hands. It might actually be the perfect excuse to install Ubuntu since the only reason not to is because they're "used to Windows now". And remember, this group didn't need a forced upgrade in the first place since they have someone who helps them stay up to date and does stuff that needs doing. - Some users have no clue and have nobody to help them. There's no point trying to get them the latest updates when they'll click accept on anything their screen tells them to accept (e.g. fake flash update). Some protection is better than none and thus Edge is better than IE8, I agree on that, but I'm not sure there is that much of a point. And they may become unable to use a computer altogether with a disruptive change like this. In other words, nobody benefits. Maybe not even Microsoft, but I can't tell yet.
Silhouette 11y ago
This article seems to be light on specifics and completely devoid of verifiable sources. If Microsoft actually did force an involuntary upgrade this, it seems likely they would be on the receiving end of real lawsuits or even facing criminal charges for unauthorised access to computer systems (particularly if they did it to anyone who had actively avoided installing or keeping earlier updates related to Windows 10), not to mention any later formal data protection complaints over Windows 10's privacy implications, opening the floodgates to complaints under consumer protection legislation, and other risks. Even given that I wouldn't trust Microsoft as far as I could throw it at this point, I still doubt they're arrogant/naive enough to go that far. Is this just a vaguely rehashed story about one of the optional updates being ticked by default from the other day?
- ac29 11y ago
  I'll be an anecdotal, but verifiable source. "[...] since whenever you restart or shut down your PC, the next time you use it, the machine will start installing Windows 10". This is absolutely false on at least 2 PCs I manage (one Win7 home, one Win8.1 home, both have had the tray icon offering the free upgrade for months). They have both been restarted in the past couple days and neither has upgraded itself to Win10.
deleted 11y ago
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compbio 11y ago
This would run afoul of the European 'cookie law' (the name is a bit of a misnomer as it applies to more than just cookies). In short: Microsoft needs express permission to store/modify files on my computer. It will probably be spun like Windows 10 is a security update to old OS's, but that is simply not sincere. Given the problematic privacy/sharing/phone-home settings on Windows 10 one can hardly call it a security improvement. You must tell people if you set cookies, and clearly explain what the cookies do and why. You must also get the user’s consent. Consent can be implied, but must be knowingly given. The same rules also apply if you use any other type of technology to store or gain access to information on someone’s device. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-pecr/cookies-and-similar-technologies/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-pecr/cookies-a... [Under the cookie law permission is needed to] store or gain access to data on the peripherals of a user through an electronic communication network. http://www.justitia.nl/cookiewet.html http://www.justitia.nl/cookiewet.html Article 5.3) Member States shall ensure that the use of electronic communications networks to store information or to gain access to information stored in the terminal equipment of a subscriber or user is only allowed on condition that the subscriber or user concerned is provided with clear and comprehensive information in accordance with Directive 95/46/EC, inter alia about the purposes of the processing, and is offered the right to refuse such processing by the data controller. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002L0058:EN:HTML http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:...
- tajen 11y ago
  The total of fines Microsoft has already faced from the European Commission is €2bn. It's mostly for forgetting to give the browser choice in Vista, if I remember well, after doing it properly in XP, and for not publishing the documentation of an API. On the other hand, given automatic upgrades are now a habit, and given Microsoft's monopoly is on a very narrower market (so, not sure it's a monopoly), I'm not sure they can be pursued, if the story is confirmed. Unless we also pursue Chrome's automatic updates.
  - compbio 11y ago
    Most users will (rightly so) view this as an OS upgrade, not as an update. You already gave MS permission to provide you with security updates. You did not give MS permission to upgrade your OS. I feel the difference is of importance as updates are often necessary, while upgrades are not. This update installs the Get Windows 10 app, which helps users understand their Windows 10 upgrade options and device readiness. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3035583 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3035583
port6667 11y ago
I guess i'm the only one who's happy enough with Windows 10. What i'm not happy about is lazy companies not making updated drivers for Win10. TP-Link i'm looking at you
- SyneRyder 11y ago
  I've been very happy with Windows 10, it has completely revitalised some 9 year old hardware I still have. But I've been very lucky, I can't expect manufacturers to keep writing drivers for free for a decade. Seems that if Microsoft wants to keep consumers upgrading, they also need to continue driver compatibility so the old hardware still runs.
romanovcode 11y ago
I don't see the problem TBH. It seems that hey should be forcing upgrades so people will finally stop complaining about IE and other outdated stuff. Guess some can never be satisfied no matter what.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
jimktrains2 11y ago
What about people with bandwidth caps?
- pdkl95 11y ago
  Take Microsoft to small claims court for any over-limit fees caused by forced downloads.
ck2 11y ago
Let's see them upgrade my XP Switching to osx at the end of year anyway, never realized how linux-like the back-end was, I would have switched sooner.
deleted 11y ago
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mahouse 11y ago
Absolutely no sources.
wj 11y ago
I run Windows 8 inside Virtual Box but the Windows 10 upgrade won't install due to a graphics driver issue. Hoping that is fixed so I don't get left out in the cold.
Overtonwindow 11y ago
I'm glad I waited. Perhaps I am one of the few who is ..ok with using Windows 8. I don't feel the need to upgrade, and I'm deeply hesitant to upgrade for fear of something like this. I am taking risks with security, but it's either this or go Linux; I'm terrible with the command line.
charonn0 11y ago
I'm skeptical. If it's true then Microsoft's legal department dropped the ball: lawsuits of the class-action and anti-trust variety would promptly follow such a move.
pvdebbe 11y ago
This must be false, or a mistake on MS' part. For example, what about the users who have perfectly valid full Win 7 licenses (that you can move from a PC to another) would be forced to upgrade to a partial Win 10 license that invalidates as soon as they do major hardware upgrades?
joesmo 11y ago
This is criminal. I think a case could be made here for unauthorized access under the CFAA for users who don't want to switch but are switched anyway. Microsoft is clearly overstepping its bounds and accessing files that it has no permission to. In fact, there's no way to know what it's accessing and W10 can actually be seen as malware that intentionally sends data to MS (which it does). The only reason we're not looking at criminal charges here is because this is MS. There is absolutely no difference between this W10 behavior and malware except that most malware is nowhere near this harmful. And in this case, we know that MS has both a motive and actual intent to do harm and access a system it was not given authorization to access.
dang 11y ago
Is this story true? If so, can anyone find a more substantive source for it? In the meantime, we added a question mark to the title.
- thaumaturgy 11y ago
  Ars Technica is saying that they contacted Microsoft and got a statement that it was a "mistake": http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/windows-10-upgrade-installing-automatically-on-some-windows-7-8-systems/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/window... edit: that's from October 15 (Thursday) and might or might not be the same issue, hard to say.
  - dang 11y ago
    Ok, in that case this submission is a dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10400807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10400807. Thank you!
    - ZoF 11y ago
      yes, this is correct.
- ZoF 11y ago
  I mean; 8.1 here, I can _not_ verify this, I'm seeing the same "upgrade to windows 10" option as I have been for months. I ran windows update literally 10 minutes ago as well. Meaning that the only chance that this is true(for windows 8.1 at least) is if I missed multiple micro-updates on my windows box and in that period of time they pushed an update enabling this forced conversion to windows 10 and then pushed a subsequent one returning to current functionality. Previous update check to the latest performed update was ~22 hours ago. That's a very small window. I doubt this is true. edit: I think it's far more likely that some specific individual, perhaps the author or his friend was on the specific update effected by -> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/windows-10-upgrade-installing-automatically-on-some-windows-7-8-systems/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/window... and as a result was 'forced to update' Pretty ridiculous to publish this without looking into it though. Not saying that Microsoft didn't mess up here, they very well may have, just that this article seems to be flagrantly false and it's disappointing how much attention it's gotten in spite of that fact.
deleted 11y ago
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slowmovintarget 11y ago
I've gone to great lengths to avoid Windows 10 and its back-ported features but installing patches marked "Security update" now tries to download and install Window 10. Enough! My story: A few months ago, I trusted MS to provide necessary updates to my system. This means when they said something was an improvement, I accepted this and installed the update. For my trust I got the Get Windows 10! Ad-Ware installed. "'Reserve' your copy today" it said. Sounds good, I can reserve the free upgrade but wait to install it until the dust settles and I can make a reasonable decision about those apps that won't work any more. I "reserved" my copy. What this really meant is that I had scheduled the upgrade. Windows Update had now become Microsoft's beachhead for capturing my PC. The release date came and Windows update was going to go ahead and install Windows 10. No prompt. No choice to leave it on my hard drive and install later. It was doing it... right then and there. I rolled the system back to a restore point and hid the upgrade. No matter. Win Update had its heart set on getting Win 10 installed. Those new security patches... Nope, Win 10. That update to the keyboard drivers... Nope, Win 10. So I rolled up my sleeves and began hours of research and diving into forums and the registry and reboots and... I uninstalled the updates for the GWX application. Removed its registry keys, cleared its directories, uninstalled the preparatory updates related to it. I marked them all as hidden. Success; Windows Update was doing normal updates again. Then Microsoft back-ported the "user telemetry" system from Windows 10 to Win 7 and pushed it as a pair of updates. "Eases the upgrade experience" their KB article said, but I knew enough now not to trust that. I had to find alternative reviews of every KB. Now every update MS pushed was suspicious. The software that was supposed to keep my machine secure and running properly, was now the software attempting to erode my control over my hardware. Even though I had hidden the updates for the GWX app and the user telemetry "enhancements" Microsoft put them back in the update queue by reissuing them. Hide says I. Now, with the latest round of updates, I carefully select only those marked as "Security updates", having read the KBs and confirmed them with non-Microsoft sources. Update Downloading Windows 10 Whisky Tango Foxtrot! I click stop. I write this. I hate what Microsoft is doing here.

138 points by sanqui 11y ago

Old and inaccurate: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/windows-10-upgrade-installing-automatically-on-some-windows-7-8-systems/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/window... Microsoft has said the force push was a mistake. I suppose you could argue their sincerity on that, but the fact remains that they did remove it.

deleted 11y ago
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TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
That was about Windows Update "mistakenly" installing Windows 10. The OP is about GWX removing the option to delay the upgrade.
- WorldWideWayne 11y ago
  I wonder how all of the Microsoft haters who think this is "not a mistake" feel about other conspiracy theories? What do you know about lizard people?
  - compbio 11y ago
    You may be interested in this older documentary: https://youtu.be/DfsK6DuNhnc?t=2208 https://youtu.be/DfsK6DuNhnc?t=2208 about the psychology of conspiracy theorists. The psychologists claim that they can predict who will believe in conspiracy theories, and they use as a dividing test the following question to separate conspiracy theorists from healthy trustful people: "The government is using mobile phone technology to track people all the time. Yes/No." Also includes an interview with David Icke. I don't think that question is decisive anymore...
    - tux3 11y ago
      It's a pretty sad world when the conspiracy "nutjobs" turn out to be right..
      - togusa 11y ago
        Don't worry there's still plenty of wrong out there to be ( www.abovetopsecret.com )
    - WorldWideWayne 11y ago
      I thought my comment above would have played better to the crowd here, who always seemed to be strongly anti-conspiracy theory since they always wanted to mis-apply things like Occam's Razor and other such heuristics, in a debate. Maybe the tide has finally turned. I just like Microsoft and don't get all the hate for them, so I tried branding someone as a conspiracy theorist to see what would happen. Interesting results... I actually fall into the group of people who can see the possibility of conspiracy everywhere. While I don't believe in lizard people, I do believe in the strong possibility that the US gov't was at least partly behind 9/11. Matter of fact - I believe the lizard people story was put out there to make conspiracy theorists look ridiculous. I also believe, for instance, that the CIA runs the illicit drug trade...and I believe that Mao Zedong was a controlled assets of the western elite, just like China is today and that this will all culminate into a really scary new world order with China as the only superpower. My favorite thing about being a conspiracy theorist is that it has actually freed my mind up a bit because I don't sweat the small stuff so much anymore and I have fully accepted the fact that I am going to die one day since I have spent so much time thinking about all the ways I'm going to get killed by the Illuminati :)
      - compbio 11y ago
        I think you got downvoted not so much because HN believes in conspiracy theories, but because the lizard people remark was a bit of a rude put-down. I very much like Microsoft too, but I also get the hate. Even this move of nagging you to update to Win10 seems to come out of the brain of marketeers, not engineers. When companies get big enough, they often lose some of their engineering/academic spirit to commercial thinking. Understandable, but annoying, as it becomes less about building a great product, but more about building great profits. I do not think the US gov had anything to do with 9/11. I think they just didn't share information correctly and it could have been avoided (dropped the ball). I am always a bit mystified when Americans say that 9/11 was an inside job. If true, their government would be directly responsible for the deaths of 1000s. That should cause riots, not conspiracy theory forums. I think 9/11 conspiracy theories are interesting, because I have a conspiracy theory that most of these theories are propagated by the Middle East (shift the blame) and Russia (destabilize US politics, comparable to Operation INFEKTION, where they tried to paint the US as creating AIDS). I think the lizard people are the product of a troubled mind and plain old antisemitism. In an allegorical sense it may hold some truths though. The crack cocaine flights of the CIA are no theory anymore, these have been pretty much confirmed, culminating in the "suicide" of Gary Webb by two(!) bullets to the head. I like Robert Anton Wilson when he says that belief in the Illuminati is driven by our current information overload: The brain wants to make sense of it all, and that is easier when you picture an evil force behind the curtains pulling the strings. But also that there simply are a lot of people conspiring to do evil things (for instance the P2 lodge). So it is a balance between reality and psychology. My favorite thing about conspiracy theories is that it allows you to draw all sorts of connections. It's a form of data analysis to occupy the mind with, only bounded by your imagination. I think the China-themed conspiracy theories are very US-centric. Europe seems less afraid of China as a competitor, decreasing the popularity and adoption of such theories.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

Thus far I have been spared the plague because my Boot Camp partition has less than a gigabyte of free space, so Microsoft can't install Windows 10 for me even if they want to.

jrockway 11y ago

On the one hand, Microsoft gets criticized for abandoning millions of machines by dropping support for XP. Then, Microsoft gets criticized for not letting that happen with Windows 7 and 8 by keeping them up to date. Do people tend to complain about Chrome's auto updates?

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
OS upgrades aren't directly comparable to automatically-updating software. They bring big changes and break compatibility. In the case of Windows 10, it merges two UI paradigms together. When software updates itself, it doesn't typically hop to the next major version, anyway. Chrome and evergreen software like it are exceptions. This is especially true for Windows, which doesn't have a seamless upgrade process.
- ksml 11y ago
  Not only is there an issue of the user interface changing significantly, but there are also driver issues when manufacturers are slow to release updated drivers (big problems for older devices). Anecdotal, but I have heard many people complain of increased blue screens.
sigmar 11y ago
There is middle ground that you aren't considering: give people an option to update. They didn't give that option to people with xp, and they aren't giving that option to people with windows 7.
userbinator 11y ago
Do people tend to complain about Chrome's auto updates? I'd bet most of those are minor bugfixes which don't change behaviour drastically, but fix things like exploits. Most people won't even notice any changes and they can keep using the software like they used to.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  And when Chrome and such do add stuff, any changes are gradual and unobtrusive. In a sense there is only one "major version" of Chrome and it is continually subtly changing. On the other hand, operating systems and most software have distinct major versions and automatic updates only happen within those versions.

everyone 11y ago

I'm assuming this didnt apply to enterprise customers? The move from xp to 7 was a big deal for IT departments everywhere. I cant imagine them moving on from 7 anytime soon.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
GWX is very consumer-focussed, I'd be surprised if it was even installed on enterprise Windows versions.
stephengillie 11y ago
Windows 7/8/8.1 Enterprise don't have the upgrade option. I installed Win8 Enterprise over a year ago, it's never mentioned an upgrade.
togusa 11y ago
It's even worse for some enterprise with VL agreements like us. We have a 1 year window to get everyone on windows 10 from the release date. Needless to say a few macs and centos boxes have made an appearance and everyone suddenly knows python. I'm making the jump when 7.2 drops and moving to windows in a VM.
everyone 11y ago
ps. I only use windows for games (which is super-important for me. I'm ready to jump entirely to Linux at a moments notice)

userbinator 11y ago

While switching to a new OS, especially Windows 10 is definitely a good move Microsoft would certainly promote that view, but is it really? Am I one of the minority of users who prefers a stable environment customised exactly as I want it, instead of "latest and greatest"?

probably_wrong 11y ago
I was lucky enough to be around when my parents had to upgrade their computer, because it took a long time to customize everything in such a way they could find what they need without drowning in a sea of useless icons. I don't even want to think what would happen if they called me out of the blue because that upgrade happened without their knowledge, and they can't find anything anymore.
maratd 11y ago
Disable the Windows Update service. Microsoft will never bother you again and you can have your exact, perfected experience for all eternity.
- sigzero 11y ago
  As your system becomes a zombie on some bot-net.
  - fwn 11y ago
    He gave a solution for a specific problem. The "but your whole security will break down if you miss a year of security updates" argument is lazy and counterfactual.
  - walterbell 11y ago
    Security-only updates can be installed manually, after careful review.
- pcunite 11y ago
  I had to buy a shovel a few years ago. It was so nice with the modern construction and materials. Much better than what my dad and I used when I was a kid helping him with chores. But you know what? I didn't have to re-learn anything! It just worked. It was a cool new color, felt better, actually helped me dig better, but the functionality it provided and the user experience was largely the same. Modern software companies will "have" to understand this and tell their designers to go for a long walk. Software is too important to simply say, "Everything has changed! Surprise!" Most people don't care about software "changes" about like I don't care how the engine in my car works. Just make it go. Fix it, improve it, make it safer, blah blah ... but don't make me do something different because your designers are bored with consistency.

peeters 11y ago

> While switching to a new OS, especially Windows 10 is definitely a good move Who is claiming this? Maybe for hardware known to have good Windows 10 support it's a good move. For me, I've had more blue screens in the last month than I had in the 10 years before that. Lots of poor driver support (fingerprint reader doesn't work, touchpad reverts settings after every boot, crashes). The user experience is an upgrade from my perspective, but the upgrade has been anything but painless.

scrollaway 11y ago
When I installed windows 10 last week I had the .. pleasure... to look at the various privacy options. During the installation, Windows uses weasel words to present the user with privacy settings hiding the option to change them at all. Take a look: https://jonathan.porta.codes/images/posts/2015/07/window-10-privacy-settings-1.png https://jonathan.porta.codes/images/posts/2015/07/window-10-... In "express settings": * Send contact, calendar and input data to Microsoft * Send typing and inking data to Microsoft * Let apps use your Advertising ID for "experiences across apps" (I'm not making this shit up) * Send microsoft and "trusted partners" location data * Turn on SmartScreen (Admittedly I don't know exactly how it works but seeing as it's in those options I can take a horrifying guess on the implications) * Send your browsing data to Microsoft to "make your overall experience better" (WTF wording) * Autoconnect to shared networks * Autoconnect to suggested open hotspots Damn. And then, one that's not in there which you have to find for yourself, if you even know about it: P2P share windows updates with any windows computer on the internet. Ho-ly-crap. I like W10 as an OS so far but this stuff is just insane. BTW, the only reason I went with W10 was that W7 doesn't support GPT. Sources: http://www.howtogeek.com/224352/what%E2%80%99s-the-difference-between-windows-10%E2%80%99s-express-or-custom-setup/ http://www.howtogeek.com/224352/what%E2%80%99s-the-differenc... http://www.howtogeek.com/224981/how-to-stop-windows-10-from-uploading-updates-to-other-pcs-over-the-internet/ http://www.howtogeek.com/224981/how-to-stop-windows-10-from-... Edit: Yikes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SmartScreen#SmartScreen_in_Windows_8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SmartScreen#SmartScr...
- brazzledazzle 11y ago

ferongr 11y ago

Personally after KB3035583 that I had hidden before, was re-enabled and installed automatically, I started feeling bothered by that fact. That was the final push that led me to nuking my Windows 7 partition and jumping to Xubuntu GNU/Linux.

thom 11y ago
I'm getting _so_ bored of having to click on every knowledge base article to see exactly what each of the updates do, in order to hide (week after week) the two or three that try and sneak Get Windows 10 in. I'm getting less and less likely to install _any_ updates.
leke 11y ago
Ah, so I wasn't the only one that had this happen. I thought I was going crazy for a while.
macns 11y ago
Happened to me too yesterday on fresh windows 7 SP1 x64 install. Why let the user hide it if you're going to unhide it again later ?

pcunite 11y ago

My concern with Windows 10, and I expect it to get addressed, is having a platform underneath me keep changing. I don't want to get in my car one day and find out that the gas pedal has changed positions with the brake. I expect my OS to be just as consistent in this regard. So, for me, I need a way to say, "I don't ever want to upgrade automatically. I'll upgrade when I'm ready".

d2xdy2 11y ago
On a tangent, how do you feel about Tesla doing OTA updates for core functionality on their cars? Stuff like "autopilot" and whatnot.
- xeromal 11y ago
  The difference is that for their new features like autopilot, you actually pay for the upgrade like DLC.
- pcunite 11y ago
  In this specific instance, it sounds like an "extra" and not a "change". So, I would be okay with that. However, I don't own a Tesla so I can't say for sure. For me personally, I don't want upgrades that throw away all my muscle memory in the name of "design". As more and more people enter the software development ecosystem, they're going to need to learn (the hard way) that sometimes "boring" is the right thing to do.
  - cma 11y ago
    The update also apparently changed the dashboard and rearranged common things like your current speed.
xiler 11y ago
Despite the totality of his radical opinions, this to me seems like one of RMS's more valid arguments against non-Libre software. Especially when it comes to something fundamental like an OS, being at the mercy of a corporation is highly problematic.

xamuel 11y ago

Up until 2013 or so, I was always a PC guy. I wanted to be a PC guy. But Microsoft did, and continues to do, everything in their power to change my mind about that. I still have one old laptop running Windows 7, the instant they force-upgrade that is the instant I bid adieu to the last remnant of Microsoft in my home computing life.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Speaking of which, using the term "PC" to describe x86 Windows machines somewhat compatible with IBM PC standards (a.k.a. "Wintel") desperately needs to die.
- pvdebbe 11y ago
  Yes. It is infuriating to hear the phrase "PC or linux"

Asmod4n 11y ago

This "free" upgrade is currently disabled on "Pro" Versions of Windows. If anything like this happens on those versions a lot of business might get into trouble.

stephengillie 11y ago
Enterprise version, actually. Pro still pushes the upgrade.

a3n 11y ago

I wonder if the license allows this. "We can arbitrarily change the OS version that you are running." Since you bought (a license) for Windows 7, I would think if Windows 10 degrades your experience sufficiently, you might prevail in small claims court.

davnicwil 11y ago

I may have some of the facts wrong here, but I think this means that upgraded systems will also start to run Microsoft's evergreen browser Edge, in place of IE, as the default browser. It seems like this aspect, at least, could be a very good thing. Thinking about the very non-technical and casual user who uses the default IE and doesn't upgrade/switch for no particular reason other than some mixture of doesn't know it'll be better/afraid of breaking something/doesn't know how. It'll just kill all those IE 8s/9s/10s still running out there that, really, should be replaced. Yes, it's a little brute force, but I can't see this being anything other than a good thing for (the vast majority of) these users and for developers.

geerlingguy 11y ago
...Except that Edge is the new IE, in some bad ways. Sure, many bugs and missing features will be fixed and added in the coming months/years, but there are already a number of hacks that need to be made to properly support Edge with similar functionality as FF, Chrome and Safari. All that's old is new.
- jimueller 11y ago
  No, what's new is that those bugs and missing features will get fixed without an OS service pack / release.
lucb1e 11y ago
> I can't see this being anything other than a good thing for (the vast majority of) these users and for developers. For developers? I think they are quite capable of deciding for themselves. For users? Here I can see where you're coming from, but let's think this through: - Some users know how stuff works. They'll upgrade when they want to, no need to force them. - Some users have no clue about how stuff works, but they know someone who does (e.g. my grandma and me). If there would be an opt-out of this forced upgrade, that someone (me) could perform that on their computer and upgrade them when they're ready. But there is no opt out, so instead they (me) will have a hell of an explaining job on their hands. It might actually be the perfect excuse to install Ubuntu since the only reason not to is because they're "used to Windows now". And remember, this group didn't need a forced upgrade in the first place since they have someone who helps them stay up to date and does stuff that needs doing. - Some users have no clue and have nobody to help them. There's no point trying to get them the latest updates when they'll click accept on anything their screen tells them to accept (e.g. fake flash update). Some protection is better than none and thus Edge is better than IE8, I agree on that, but I'm not sure there is that much of a point. And they may become unable to use a computer altogether with a disruptive change like this. In other words, nobody benefits. Maybe not even Microsoft, but I can't tell yet.

Silhouette 11y ago

This article seems to be light on specifics and completely devoid of verifiable sources. If Microsoft actually did force an involuntary upgrade this, it seems likely they would be on the receiving end of real lawsuits or even facing criminal charges for unauthorised access to computer systems (particularly if they did it to anyone who had actively avoided installing or keeping earlier updates related to Windows 10), not to mention any later formal data protection complaints over Windows 10's privacy implications, opening the floodgates to complaints under consumer protection legislation, and other risks. Even given that I wouldn't trust Microsoft as far as I could throw it at this point, I still doubt they're arrogant/naive enough to go that far. Is this just a vaguely rehashed story about one of the optional updates being ticked by default from the other day?

ac29 11y ago
I'll be an anecdotal, but verifiable source. "[...] since whenever you restart or shut down your PC, the next time you use it, the machine will start installing Windows 10". This is absolutely false on at least 2 PCs I manage (one Win7 home, one Win8.1 home, both have had the tray icon offering the free upgrade for months). They have both been restarted in the past couple days and neither has upgraded itself to Win10.

deleted 11y ago

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compbio 11y ago

This would run afoul of the European 'cookie law' (the name is a bit of a misnomer as it applies to more than just cookies). In short: Microsoft needs express permission to store/modify files on my computer. It will probably be spun like Windows 10 is a security update to old OS's, but that is simply not sincere. Given the problematic privacy/sharing/phone-home settings on Windows 10 one can hardly call it a security improvement. You must tell people if you set cookies, and clearly explain what the cookies do and why. You must also get the user’s consent. Consent can be implied, but must be knowingly given. The same rules also apply if you use any other type of technology to store or gain access to information on someone’s device. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-pecr/cookies-and-similar-technologies/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-pecr/cookies-a... [Under the cookie law permission is needed to] store or gain access to data on the peripherals of a user through an electronic communication network. http://www.justitia.nl/cookiewet.html http://www.justitia.nl/cookiewet.html Article 5.3) Member States shall ensure that the use of electronic communications networks to store information or to gain access to information stored in the terminal equipment of a subscriber or user is only allowed on condition that the subscriber or user concerned is provided with clear and comprehensive information in accordance with Directive 95/46/EC, inter alia about the purposes of the processing, and is offered the right to refuse such processing by the data controller. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002L0058:EN:HTML http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:...

tajen 11y ago
The total of fines Microsoft has already faced from the European Commission is €2bn. It's mostly for forgetting to give the browser choice in Vista, if I remember well, after doing it properly in XP, and for not publishing the documentation of an API. On the other hand, given automatic upgrades are now a habit, and given Microsoft's monopoly is on a very narrower market (so, not sure it's a monopoly), I'm not sure they can be pursued, if the story is confirmed. Unless we also pursue Chrome's automatic updates.
- compbio 11y ago
  Most users will (rightly so) view this as an OS upgrade, not as an update. You already gave MS permission to provide you with security updates. You did not give MS permission to upgrade your OS. I feel the difference is of importance as updates are often necessary, while upgrades are not. This update installs the Get Windows 10 app, which helps users understand their Windows 10 upgrade options and device readiness. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3035583 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3035583

port6667 11y ago

I guess i'm the only one who's happy enough with Windows 10. What i'm not happy about is lazy companies not making updated drivers for Win10. TP-Link i'm looking at you

SyneRyder 11y ago
I've been very happy with Windows 10, it has completely revitalised some 9 year old hardware I still have. But I've been very lucky, I can't expect manufacturers to keep writing drivers for free for a decade. Seems that if Microsoft wants to keep consumers upgrading, they also need to continue driver compatibility so the old hardware still runs.

romanovcode 11y ago

I don't see the problem TBH. It seems that hey should be forcing upgrades so people will finally stop complaining about IE and other outdated stuff. Guess some can never be satisfied no matter what.

deleted 11y ago
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jimktrains2 11y ago

What about people with bandwidth caps?

pdkl95 11y ago
Take Microsoft to small claims court for any over-limit fees caused by forced downloads.

ck2 11y ago

Let's see them upgrade my XP Switching to osx at the end of year anyway, never realized how linux-like the back-end was, I would have switched sooner.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

mahouse 11y ago

Absolutely no sources.

wj 11y ago

I run Windows 8 inside Virtual Box but the Windows 10 upgrade won't install due to a graphics driver issue. Hoping that is fixed so I don't get left out in the cold.

Overtonwindow 11y ago

I'm glad I waited. Perhaps I am one of the few who is ..ok with using Windows 8. I don't feel the need to upgrade, and I'm deeply hesitant to upgrade for fear of something like this. I am taking risks with security, but it's either this or go Linux; I'm terrible with the command line.

charonn0 11y ago

I'm skeptical. If it's true then Microsoft's legal department dropped the ball: lawsuits of the class-action and anti-trust variety would promptly follow such a move.

pvdebbe 11y ago

This must be false, or a mistake on MS' part. For example, what about the users who have perfectly valid full Win 7 licenses (that you can move from a PC to another) would be forced to upgrade to a partial Win 10 license that invalidates as soon as they do major hardware upgrades?

joesmo 11y ago

This is criminal. I think a case could be made here for unauthorized access under the CFAA for users who don't want to switch but are switched anyway. Microsoft is clearly overstepping its bounds and accessing files that it has no permission to. In fact, there's no way to know what it's accessing and W10 can actually be seen as malware that intentionally sends data to MS (which it does). The only reason we're not looking at criminal charges here is because this is MS. There is absolutely no difference between this W10 behavior and malware except that most malware is nowhere near this harmful. And in this case, we know that MS has both a motive and actual intent to do harm and access a system it was not given authorization to access.

dang 11y ago

Is this story true? If so, can anyone find a more substantive source for it? In the meantime, we added a question mark to the title.

thaumaturgy 11y ago
Ars Technica is saying that they contacted Microsoft and got a statement that it was a "mistake": http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/windows-10-upgrade-installing-automatically-on-some-windows-7-8-systems/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/window... edit: that's from October 15 (Thursday) and might or might not be the same issue, hard to say.
- dang 11y ago
  Ok, in that case this submission is a dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10400807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10400807. Thank you!
  - ZoF 11y ago
    yes, this is correct.
ZoF 11y ago
I mean; 8.1 here, I can _not_ verify this, I'm seeing the same "upgrade to windows 10" option as I have been for months. I ran windows update literally 10 minutes ago as well. Meaning that the only chance that this is true(for windows 8.1 at least) is if I missed multiple micro-updates on my windows box and in that period of time they pushed an update enabling this forced conversion to windows 10 and then pushed a subsequent one returning to current functionality. Previous update check to the latest performed update was ~22 hours ago. That's a very small window. I doubt this is true. edit: I think it's far more likely that some specific individual, perhaps the author or his friend was on the specific update effected by -> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/windows-10-upgrade-installing-automatically-on-some-windows-7-8-systems/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/window... and as a result was 'forced to update' Pretty ridiculous to publish this without looking into it though. Not saying that Microsoft didn't mess up here, they very well may have, just that this article seems to be flagrantly false and it's disappointing how much attention it's gotten in spite of that fact.

deleted 11y ago

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slowmovintarget 11y ago

I've gone to great lengths to avoid Windows 10 and its back-ported features but installing patches marked "Security update" now tries to download and install Window 10. Enough! My story: A few months ago, I trusted MS to provide necessary updates to my system. This means when they said something was an improvement, I accepted this and installed the update. For my trust I got the Get Windows 10! Ad-Ware installed. "'Reserve' your copy today" it said. Sounds good, I can reserve the free upgrade but wait to install it until the dust settles and I can make a reasonable decision about those apps that won't work any more. I "reserved" my copy. What this really meant is that I had scheduled the upgrade. Windows Update had now become Microsoft's beachhead for capturing my PC. The release date came and Windows update was going to go ahead and install Windows 10. No prompt. No choice to leave it on my hard drive and install later. It was doing it... right then and there. I rolled the system back to a restore point and hid the upgrade. No matter. Win Update had its heart set on getting Win 10 installed. Those new security patches... Nope, Win 10. That update to the keyboard drivers... Nope, Win 10. So I rolled up my sleeves and began hours of research and diving into forums and the registry and reboots and... I uninstalled the updates for the GWX application. Removed its registry keys, cleared its directories, uninstalled the preparatory updates related to it. I marked them all as hidden. Success; Windows Update was doing normal updates again. Then Microsoft back-ported the "user telemetry" system from Windows 10 to Win 7 and pushed it as a pair of updates. "Eases the upgrade experience" their KB article said, but I knew enough now not to trust that. I had to find alternative reviews of every KB. Now every update MS pushed was suspicious. The software that was supposed to keep my machine secure and running properly, was now the software attempting to erode my control over my hardware. Even though I had hidden the updates for the GWX app and the user telemetry "enhancements" Microsoft put them back in the update queue by reissuing them. Hide says I. Now, with the latest round of updates, I carefully select only those marked as "Security updates", having read the KBs and confirmed them with non-Microsoft sources. Update Downloading Windows 10 Whisky Tango Foxtrot! I click stop. I write this. I hate what Microsoft is doing here.