3 ms·

I'm curious to know what you determined are the objective signs of brainwashing and mind control. Would you share?

themodelplumber 11y ago
It's been a while, but if it helps, I divided my research into different categories, like the signs that you'd expect from an organization using brainwashing techniques, the objective signs that you'd expect in a leader or leadership team using brainwashing, and the objective signs of someone affected by brainwashing. Using #2 as an example, some people assume that because an organization has a publicly-visible leader, that person calls the shots (edit for clarity: when in fact the organization may rely most on local councils, etc. and not so much on the figurehead). That's why it's important to be clear on one's own status--outsider or insider. This was a huge research boon for me. That clarification results in a better idea of your own biases, and also gives you an idea of the way your opposites (outsiders if you're an insider) may be getting their information or education. It is extremely easy to get one's own subjective thinking caught up in this, no matter what your position. For example, some frequently-listed signs of brainwashing are "emotional attachment" and "dependency." Not very helpful in some hopefully obvious ways; these terms are practically plug-n-play with confirmation bias. On the other hand, it _could_ be helpful information if you developed a set of criteria. Some have tried, as I recall. Nothing scientific because you essentially end up typologizing. The other rather frightening thing was learning about government-sponsored anti-cult movements, like the fairly recent movement in Russia. TBH, the whole thing was pretty jacked up, and I cut it short when I started reading about possibly innocent people getting locked up in psych wards. Another surprising "anti-cult" force commonly listed is the media, and this seems like it could hold true at least to the degree that a news outlet is willing to sensationalize vs. provide solid reporting (then you get into what is solid reporting, etc.). After researching that, IMO if you're getting cult information from the media, it's a good idea to remind yourself that it's not the same as doing your own research, no matter what the facts are about the organization in question.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  How can you determine who the insiders are if you are an outsider? I'm not familiar with anti-cult movements. I'll have to look into it. I might consider that if you find yourself referring to other people as outsiders, you might be in a cult (though, I may be using a different definition than you).
  - themodelplumber 11y ago
    Ah, so just to clarify regarding insider / outsider terminology, I'm getting those terms from my research into religion in general and anthropology[1][2] rather than my own religion. But that made me chuckle a bit, the idea of a bunch of stepford wives chanting "outsider...outsider" and banishing someone. That is a familiar sort of stereotype to me as an insider, though many outsiders (again, not really my term, just a convenient abstraction) haven't usually seen such a mental concept through to completion via e.g. direct research, so it's still a shockingly common perception. I have some pretty hilarious anecdotes from encounters with those perceptions, but they are long to tell. (BTW I'm happy to leave the non-scholarly use of terms like "outsider" to nation-states[3]...hehe) [1] http://www.amazon.com/Insider-Outsider-Problem-Study-Religion/dp/0826481469 http://www.amazon.com/Insider-Outsider-Problem-Study-Religio... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emic_and_etic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emic_and_etic [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaijin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaijin
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Thanks for the links. I've started to look at them. Sorry, I don't have much more to add to the conversation for now.

It's been a while, but if it helps, I divided my research into different categories, like the signs that you'd expect from an organization using brainwashing techniques, the objective signs that you'd expect in a leader or leadership team using brainwashing, and the objective signs of someone affected by brainwashing. Using #2 as an example, some people assume that because an organization has a publicly-visible leader, that person calls the shots (edit for clarity: when in fact the organization may rely most on local councils, etc. and not so much on the figurehead). That's why it's important to be clear on one's own status--outsider or insider. This was a huge research boon for me. That clarification results in a better idea of your own biases, and also gives you an idea of the way your opposites (outsiders if you're an insider) may be getting their information or education. It is extremely easy to get one's own subjective thinking caught up in this, no matter what your position. For example, some frequently-listed signs of brainwashing are "emotional attachment" and "dependency." Not very helpful in some hopefully obvious ways; these terms are practically plug-n-play with confirmation bias. On the other hand, it _could_ be helpful information if you developed a set of criteria. Some have tried, as I recall. Nothing scientific because you essentially end up typologizing. The other rather frightening thing was learning about government-sponsored anti-cult movements, like the fairly recent movement in Russia. TBH, the whole thing was pretty jacked up, and I cut it short when I started reading about possibly innocent people getting locked up in psych wards. Another surprising "anti-cult" force commonly listed is the media, and this seems like it could hold true at least to the degree that a news outlet is willing to sensationalize vs. provide solid reporting (then you get into what is solid reporting, etc.). After researching that, IMO if you're getting cult information from the media, it's a good idea to remind yourself that it's not the same as doing your own research, no matter what the facts are about the organization in question.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
How can you determine who the insiders are if you are an outsider? I'm not familiar with anti-cult movements. I'll have to look into it. I might consider that if you find yourself referring to other people as outsiders, you might be in a cult (though, I may be using a different definition than you).
- themodelplumber 11y ago
  Ah, so just to clarify regarding insider / outsider terminology, I'm getting those terms from my research into religion in general and anthropology[1][2] rather than my own religion. But that made me chuckle a bit, the idea of a bunch of stepford wives chanting "outsider...outsider" and banishing someone. That is a familiar sort of stereotype to me as an insider, though many outsiders (again, not really my term, just a convenient abstraction) haven't usually seen such a mental concept through to completion via e.g. direct research, so it's still a shockingly common perception. I have some pretty hilarious anecdotes from encounters with those perceptions, but they are long to tell. (BTW I'm happy to leave the non-scholarly use of terms like "outsider" to nation-states[3]...hehe) [1] http://www.amazon.com/Insider-Outsider-Problem-Study-Religion/dp/0826481469 http://www.amazon.com/Insider-Outsider-Problem-Study-Religio... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emic_and_etic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emic_and_etic [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaijin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaijin
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Thanks for the links. I've started to look at them. Sorry, I don't have much more to add to the conversation for now.