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I was in Vivace's the other day and Schomer's latest quest seems to be around water. As I understand it they are starting from purified water then adding in the

I was in Vivace's the other day and Schomer's latest quest seems to be around water. As I understand it they are starting from purified water then adding in their own blend of minerals to achieve the consistency they want. (apparently only the Capitol Hill location is testing this, more here: http://espressovivace.com/index.php/water-formulation/ http://espressovivace.com/index.php/water-formulation/) I have a PID'd Silvia (https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/pid-retrofit-kit-for-rancilio-silvia-with-pre-infusion-white https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/pid-retrofit-kit-for-ranci...) and it does make a difference. But man, the black hole that is making repeatable excellent espresso at home doesn't end there. You start wondering about your tamp pressure, need a $700 grinder to have consistent adjustable grinds and start roasting your own coffee. It is an expensive hobby, but a tasty one at least. If you pass through Seattle, make sure to drop by Vivace, they define what proper espresso is.

RogerL 11y ago
I PIDed my Silvia as well. Seems to work well, though my heat exchange machine w/o a PID seemed to make better espresso (at several times the cost). These days my schedule has me leaving early so the machine is gathering dust in the garage. When I was in Seattle this spring I made a tour of Vivace, Victrola, et al. Really fantastic stuff going on there. Here in the bay area everyone seems to like sour notes. I feel I beat out all the local shops with my home setup. Schomer definitely beats me out, though.
sp332 11y ago
How is a $700 grinder better than any burr grinder?
- peapicker 11y ago
  I've had cheap (~$100) burr grinders and still got too much dust in my ground for a proper-tasting espresso. Bought a Nuova Simonelli MCF (back when they were $350 instead of $600) and the commercial-level burrs and worm-gear infinite grind adjustment made my espresso incredibly better. Details on features of a grinder like this: https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/nuova-simonelli-mcf https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/nuova-simonelli-mcf
- Retric 11y ago
  Ego. PS: Most people fail blind taste tests with this stuff. But, just like the high end audio market spending money on junk makes some people feel good.
  - nicpottier 11y ago
    Source please? It isn't an ego thing, it is a consistency thing. People go mad about getting higher end grinders, machines, etc... because they are trying to control for all possible variables. Espresso is incredibly finicky about those variables, but you can control for them with the right equipment. It is pretty easy to demonstrate that the higher end burr grinders have greater adjustability and consistency than the lower end ones. It is also totally obvious that they are needed on any higher end machine. I used to think it was all bullshit too, then I got a Silvia, started with a blade grinder, then a low end burr grinder, then a rocky before I could finally get the grind both fine and consistent enough to pull a proper shot. It isn't a subtle difference between a good shot or a bad one, anybody can tell the difference.
    - Retric 11y ago
      EX: http://www.drbunsen.org/coffee-experiments/ http://www.drbunsen.org/coffee-experiments/ Based on this analysis, subjects did not show a statistically significant preference in coffee brewed from a blade grinder or burr grinder. First off only ~1/3 of coffee drinkers take it black which masks a lot of taste variation. Second, taste sensitivity varies widely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster Put together well under half of coffee drinkers notice subtle differences in grinding methods. Assuming the devices are setup to similar grinding levels and use similar source beans. Note: You can find examples on both sides of this issue. But, the blind taste tests that repeat over time fail to provide the expected consistency. PS: There are a few people that both notice and care about these issues, but they really are the minority of coffee drinkers.
      - luma 11y ago
        Brewed coffee != espresso. I think that might be the essential piece you are missing. Espresso is brewed at very high pressures and as a result the grind size and consistency has a large impact on the resulting shot. The difference is not at all subtle and is quantified by the extraction time for each shot.
- draker 11y ago
  Commercial coffee grinders are periodically calibrated to ensure they are providing the proper grind. When new both the $100 unit and $700 unit would likely provide similar results. Over time the commercial unit (built to handle higher volume) would remain in-spec without calibration for a consumer user whereas the grind of the $100 unit would likely degrade from wear.
swagv 11y ago
What's an unforseen side-effect of so many people posting about their PIDed Silvias on the Internet that I noticed people who were hesitant to buy a Silvia because they thought too many people were manually correcting for a design flaw.
- robohamburger 11y ago
  That is a good point. It works pretty well once heated up or if you time when you pull your shots.

RogerL 11y ago

I PIDed my Silvia as well. Seems to work well, though my heat exchange machine w/o a PID seemed to make better espresso (at several times the cost). These days my schedule has me leaving early so the machine is gathering dust in the garage. When I was in Seattle this spring I made a tour of Vivace, Victrola, et al. Really fantastic stuff going on there. Here in the bay area everyone seems to like sour notes. I feel I beat out all the local shops with my home setup. Schomer definitely beats me out, though.

sp332 11y ago

How is a $700 grinder better than any burr grinder?

peapicker 11y ago
I've had cheap (~$100) burr grinders and still got too much dust in my ground for a proper-tasting espresso. Bought a Nuova Simonelli MCF (back when they were $350 instead of $600) and the commercial-level burrs and worm-gear infinite grind adjustment made my espresso incredibly better. Details on features of a grinder like this: https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/nuova-simonelli-mcf https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/nuova-simonelli-mcf
Retric 11y ago
Ego. PS: Most people fail blind taste tests with this stuff. But, just like the high end audio market spending money on junk makes some people feel good.
- nicpottier 11y ago
  Source please? It isn't an ego thing, it is a consistency thing. People go mad about getting higher end grinders, machines, etc... because they are trying to control for all possible variables. Espresso is incredibly finicky about those variables, but you can control for them with the right equipment. It is pretty easy to demonstrate that the higher end burr grinders have greater adjustability and consistency than the lower end ones. It is also totally obvious that they are needed on any higher end machine. I used to think it was all bullshit too, then I got a Silvia, started with a blade grinder, then a low end burr grinder, then a rocky before I could finally get the grind both fine and consistent enough to pull a proper shot. It isn't a subtle difference between a good shot or a bad one, anybody can tell the difference.
  - Retric 11y ago
    EX: http://www.drbunsen.org/coffee-experiments/ http://www.drbunsen.org/coffee-experiments/ Based on this analysis, subjects did not show a statistically significant preference in coffee brewed from a blade grinder or burr grinder. First off only ~1/3 of coffee drinkers take it black which masks a lot of taste variation. Second, taste sensitivity varies widely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster Put together well under half of coffee drinkers notice subtle differences in grinding methods. Assuming the devices are setup to similar grinding levels and use similar source beans. Note: You can find examples on both sides of this issue. But, the blind taste tests that repeat over time fail to provide the expected consistency. PS: There are a few people that both notice and care about these issues, but they really are the minority of coffee drinkers.
    - luma 11y ago
      Brewed coffee != espresso. I think that might be the essential piece you are missing. Espresso is brewed at very high pressures and as a result the grind size and consistency has a large impact on the resulting shot. The difference is not at all subtle and is quantified by the extraction time for each shot.
draker 11y ago
Commercial coffee grinders are periodically calibrated to ensure they are providing the proper grind. When new both the $100 unit and $700 unit would likely provide similar results. Over time the commercial unit (built to handle higher volume) would remain in-spec without calibration for a consumer user whereas the grind of the $100 unit would likely degrade from wear.

swagv 11y ago

What's an unforseen side-effect of so many people posting about their PIDed Silvias on the Internet that I noticed people who were hesitant to buy a Silvia because they thought too many people were manually correcting for a design flaw.

robohamburger 11y ago
That is a good point. It works pretty well once heated up or if you time when you pull your shots.