4 ms·

Putin is manipulative and dangerous, while the US and NATO continue to expand their military influence worldwide, but they're benign, right?

Avalaxy 11y ago
That's a fallacy. NATO is being invited by these countries. Eastern European countries are basically begging for NATO protection. What Russia does there is pretty different, they invide a sovereign country that doesn't want them there. Of course if you're talking about the useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you're right.
- 3princip 11y ago
  Well, I live in (South) Eastern Europe. The whole region is awash with puppet political elites and western backed/owned media. The result of that propaganda (which doesn't negate the existence of Russian propaganda or the bad experiences of ex-soviet block countries) in the wake of a victory in the cold-war is a very big reason for the current situation. Regarding wars and interventions, I'm not just talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, (ex)Yugoslavia and Latin America. I'm also talking about the aggressive stance the US is taking in the south China sea as we speak. I'm also thinking about it's operations in Africa. If the US has a right to a global military presence, then others have too. Or is American exceptionalism real?
  - ckozlowski 11y ago
    So aggressive in fact, that Vietnam is courting the U.S. and the Philippines is opening Subic Bay to the U.S. Navy again. "Yankee Go Home" indeed.
    - 3princip 11y ago
      Yes, as a result of worsening relations with neighboring China. The US is aggressively pivoting to the Pacific and it's aimed at China. Which was my initial point.
  - leaveyou 11y ago
    You must be Serbian :) (I'm Romanian). It's impossible to be neutral in Central or Eastern Europe. You can't trust the West because of the war with NATO; we can't trust Russia because of Moldova/Transnistria conflict and the feeling that Putin would love to spread us in Siberia like his idol(Stalin of course) did with other inconveniently placed nations (including some unlucky Moldovans). I really hope NATO and Russia will not use Romania and Serbia against each other. There is zero support now in Romania (and in Serbia too I guess) for a conflict like that but hey, speaking of the omnipresent propaganda, anything is possible right ?.
    - 3princip 11y ago
      :) I think there is zero chance for any conflict with Romania in general (or NATO since we're surrounded now and that would be a short happening).
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
korisnik 11y ago
Countries of Eastern Europe are willingly joining NATO because they don't want to be bullied by a certain country in the east. My country joined NATO because, altho not under direct threat from Russia, Russia supported our enemy (going as far as sending special forces to work undercover) in a very recent conflict and as such I couldn't give a shit if Russia feels that their imperialism is threatened by my security. No one in NATO has to force any country into joining NATO. Russia's doing it on its won.
- 3princip 11y ago
  You're Croatian I guess, so your country was basically created with US/NATO assistance.
  - korisnik 11y ago
    No. My country was created by the democratic independence referendum of 1991, in accordance with Yugoslavia's constitution. Altho sadly, after the declaration of independence and its international acceptance, a guy named Milosevic who committed coup d'etats in Montenegro, Kosovo, Vojvodina and attempted a coup d'etat in Slovenia decided that he disagreed with our independence and started a bloody war. But thanks for trying to teach me history.
    - 3princip 11y ago
      Slovenia, sorry, my mistake. Yes I remember when your militia shot unarmed surrendering conscripts, using weapons provided by NATO members. All of which was a strong catalyst for the bloody wars which followed in neighboring republics.
      - chei0aiV 11y ago
        I'd like to recommend the documentary called "The Weight of Chains (Težina lanaca)" [1] for more in-depth arguments behind the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia. >"The Weight of Chains" is a Canadian documentary film that takes a critical look at the role that the US, NATO and the EU played in the tragic breakup of a once peaceful and prosperous European state - Yugoslavia. The film, bursting with rare stock footage never before seen by Western audiences, is a creative first-hand look at why the West intervened in the Yugoslav conflict, with an impressive roster of interviews with academics, diplomats, media personalities and ordinary citizens of the former Yugoslav republics. Following articles talk about how the US officials went on privatizing strategic domestic industry in the countries they've helped to destroy. The same happened in all post-Soviet countries which became enslaved under their new Western owners, always excused under the blanket statement of "democracy". Yet, no one talks about one million working age people that died as a direct result of the social vacuum it has created [2]. The average income levels in the EU, 25 years after the "liberation", tell the story in one picture [3]. People in post-Soviet countries / former Yugoslavia today have access to more products, but most of the people are not able to afford any of them, they are basically just window shopping in the capitalist society. >"Privatizing" Kosovo: The Madeleine Albright Way [4] Americans Who Helped Free Kosovo Return as Entrepreneurs - The New York Times [5] >"The Prime Minister of Ukraine has urged U.S. partners to actively use the investment opportunities offered by the privatization campaign in Ukraine, particularly in the energy sector," a statement posted on Ukraine’s governmental website said on Monday. [6] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw49iL6zGyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw49iL6zGyQ [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20130425211507/http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2009/090115.html https://web.archive.org/web/20130425211507/http://www.ox.ac.... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... [4] http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3516/kosovo-privatization http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3516/kosovo-privatization [5] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/world/europe/americans-who-helped-free-kosovo-return-as-entrepreneurs.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/world/europe/americans-who... [6] http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/05/25/yats-to-washington-please-buy-ukraine/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/05/25/yats-to-was...

Avalaxy 11y ago

That's a fallacy. NATO is being invited by these countries. Eastern European countries are basically begging for NATO protection. What Russia does there is pretty different, they invide a sovereign country that doesn't want them there. Of course if you're talking about the useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you're right.

3princip 11y ago
Well, I live in (South) Eastern Europe. The whole region is awash with puppet political elites and western backed/owned media. The result of that propaganda (which doesn't negate the existence of Russian propaganda or the bad experiences of ex-soviet block countries) in the wake of a victory in the cold-war is a very big reason for the current situation. Regarding wars and interventions, I'm not just talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, (ex)Yugoslavia and Latin America. I'm also talking about the aggressive stance the US is taking in the south China sea as we speak. I'm also thinking about it's operations in Africa. If the US has a right to a global military presence, then others have too. Or is American exceptionalism real?
- ckozlowski 11y ago
  So aggressive in fact, that Vietnam is courting the U.S. and the Philippines is opening Subic Bay to the U.S. Navy again. "Yankee Go Home" indeed.
  - 3princip 11y ago
    Yes, as a result of worsening relations with neighboring China. The US is aggressively pivoting to the Pacific and it's aimed at China. Which was my initial point.
- leaveyou 11y ago
  You must be Serbian :) (I'm Romanian). It's impossible to be neutral in Central or Eastern Europe. You can't trust the West because of the war with NATO; we can't trust Russia because of Moldova/Transnistria conflict and the feeling that Putin would love to spread us in Siberia like his idol(Stalin of course) did with other inconveniently placed nations (including some unlucky Moldovans). I really hope NATO and Russia will not use Romania and Serbia against each other. There is zero support now in Romania (and in Serbia too I guess) for a conflict like that but hey, speaking of the omnipresent propaganda, anything is possible right ?.
  - 3princip 11y ago
    :) I think there is zero chance for any conflict with Romania in general (or NATO since we're surrounded now and that would be a short happening).
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]

korisnik 11y ago

Countries of Eastern Europe are willingly joining NATO because they don't want to be bullied by a certain country in the east. My country joined NATO because, altho not under direct threat from Russia, Russia supported our enemy (going as far as sending special forces to work undercover) in a very recent conflict and as such I couldn't give a shit if Russia feels that their imperialism is threatened by my security. No one in NATO has to force any country into joining NATO. Russia's doing it on its won.

3princip 11y ago
You're Croatian I guess, so your country was basically created with US/NATO assistance.
- korisnik 11y ago
  No. My country was created by the democratic independence referendum of 1991, in accordance with Yugoslavia's constitution. Altho sadly, after the declaration of independence and its international acceptance, a guy named Milosevic who committed coup d'etats in Montenegro, Kosovo, Vojvodina and attempted a coup d'etat in Slovenia decided that he disagreed with our independence and started a bloody war. But thanks for trying to teach me history.
  - 3princip 11y ago
    Slovenia, sorry, my mistake. Yes I remember when your militia shot unarmed surrendering conscripts, using weapons provided by NATO members. All of which was a strong catalyst for the bloody wars which followed in neighboring republics.
    - chei0aiV 11y ago
      I'd like to recommend the documentary called "The Weight of Chains (Težina lanaca)" [1] for more in-depth arguments behind the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia. >"The Weight of Chains" is a Canadian documentary film that takes a critical look at the role that the US, NATO and the EU played in the tragic breakup of a once peaceful and prosperous European state - Yugoslavia. The film, bursting with rare stock footage never before seen by Western audiences, is a creative first-hand look at why the West intervened in the Yugoslav conflict, with an impressive roster of interviews with academics, diplomats, media personalities and ordinary citizens of the former Yugoslav republics. Following articles talk about how the US officials went on privatizing strategic domestic industry in the countries they've helped to destroy. The same happened in all post-Soviet countries which became enslaved under their new Western owners, always excused under the blanket statement of "democracy". Yet, no one talks about one million working age people that died as a direct result of the social vacuum it has created [2]. The average income levels in the EU, 25 years after the "liberation", tell the story in one picture [3]. People in post-Soviet countries / former Yugoslavia today have access to more products, but most of the people are not able to afford any of them, they are basically just window shopping in the capitalist society. >"Privatizing" Kosovo: The Madeleine Albright Way [4] Americans Who Helped Free Kosovo Return as Entrepreneurs - The New York Times [5] >"The Prime Minister of Ukraine has urged U.S. partners to actively use the investment opportunities offered by the privatization campaign in Ukraine, particularly in the energy sector," a statement posted on Ukraine’s governmental website said on Monday. [6] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw49iL6zGyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw49iL6zGyQ [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20130425211507/http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2009/090115.html https://web.archive.org/web/20130425211507/http://www.ox.ac.... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... [4] http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3516/kosovo-privatization http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3516/kosovo-privatization [5] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/world/europe/americans-who-helped-free-kosovo-return-as-entrepreneurs.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/world/europe/americans-who... [6] http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/05/25/yats-to-washington-please-buy-ukraine/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/05/25/yats-to-was...