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How tinkerers brought PID temp control to espresso machines
- acveilleux 11y agoPIDs are great for espresso boilers where you want water around 202F (sea level), so below boiling. My home machine with an 800ml brew boiler stays within +/- 2F all day with the PID. My previous machine without PID could barely keep it in a +/- 5F range. For steam boilers, pressure stats are actually quite effective, especially as they get larger.
- rmccue 11y ago(202F ~= 94C)
- adevine 11y agoInterestingly, I've read an article that explains why it's easy to make a great cup of coffee in Denver. The boiling point of water in Denver is 202, so you can add coffee to boiling water and it's right at the right temp (something that would be a big no-no at sea level).
- tzickles 11y agolink? would love to read!
- jamessb 11y agoI don't know the article, but there are many sources for the individual claims, e.g.: * Denver is at 5,130–5,690 ft (1,564–1,731 m) [0] * The boiling point of water at this altitude is between 201 and 203 °F; at sea level it is 212 °F [1] * "Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 to 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction. Colder water will result in flat, under-extracted coffee, while water that is too hot will also cause a loss of quality in the taste of the coffee." [2] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_cooking#Boiling_point_of_pure_water_at_elevated_altitudes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_cooking#Boiling_... [2]: http://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee http://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee
- pndmnm 11y agoI saw this at Boxcar last time I was in Denver -- a couple articles about their setup: http://www.freshcup.com/high-altitude-brewing/ http://www.freshcup.com/high-altitude-brewing/ http://sprudge.com/in-colorado-delicious-meticulously-brewed-boiled-coffee-boxcar-62617.html http://sprudge.com/in-colorado-delicious-meticulously-brewed...
- nicpottier 11y agoI was in Vivace's the other day and Schomer's latest quest seems to be around water. As I understand it they are starting from purified water then adding in their own blend of minerals to achieve the consistency they want. (apparently only the Capitol Hill location is testing this, more here: http://espressovivace.com/index.php/water-formulation/ http://espressovivace.com/index.php/water-formulation/) I have a PID'd Silvia (https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/pid-retrofit-kit-for-rancilio-silvia-with-pre-infusion-white https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/pid-retrofit-kit-for-ranci...) and it does make a difference. But man, the black hole that is making repeatable excellent espresso at home doesn't end there. You start wondering about your tamp pressure, need a $700 grinder to have consistent adjustable grinds and start roasting your own coffee. It is an expensive hobby, but a tasty one at least. If you pass through Seattle, make sure to drop by Vivace, they define what proper espresso is.
- RogerL 11y agoI PIDed my Silvia as well. Seems to work well, though my heat exchange machine w/o a PID seemed to make better espresso (at several times the cost). These days my schedule has me leaving early so the machine is gathering dust in the garage. When I was in Seattle this spring I made a tour of Vivace, Victrola, et al. Really fantastic stuff going on there. Here in the bay area everyone seems to like sour notes. I feel I beat out all the local shops with my home setup. Schomer definitely beats me out, though.
- sp332 11y agoHow is a $700 grinder better than any burr grinder?
- peapicker 11y agoI've had cheap (~$100) burr grinders and still got too much dust in my ground for a proper-tasting espresso. Bought a Nuova Simonelli MCF (back when they were $350 instead of $600) and the commercial-level burrs and worm-gear infinite grind adjustment made my espresso incredibly better. Details on features of a grinder like this: https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/nuova-simonelli-mcf https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/nuova-simonelli-mcf
- deutronium 11y agoPID temp controllers are also used a lot in homebrewing especially for controlling mash temperature. You can use the PID to maintain the temperature of the wort at ~65C by passing the wort through a heating element and a temperature probe (this is called Recirculating Infusion Mash System).
- michael_h 11y agoI've found that the mashing temperature of the venerable 'huge cooler wrapped in bath towels' is unbelievably stable.
- deutronium 11y agoYeah, that's true, although using RIMS/HERMS lets you performed stepped mashes too and to some degree helps with clarity as the wort is constantly filtered through the grain bed.
- ascorbic 11y agoAgreed. Much as I love shiny kit, and RIMS/HERMS seems fun, I've never had my big cooler mash tun drop by even one degree C over 90 minutes, even without bath towels.
- attaboyjon 11y agoBefore we had reasonable espresso in Austin, I had my own PID'd Silvia. I had had good coffee Vivace in Seattle and wanted to replicate it. But boy was it a lot of work, your home-roasted beans have to be the right freshness, the milk has to be super fresh and your tamping technique has to be spot on. Now that we have good coffee in Austin I cant see going back to doing it myself.
- adevine 11y agoMeh. I live in Austin, and I have yet to find a shop that makes espresso drinks as well as I do (at least to my taste). Don't get me wrong, Austin has some great shops. However, I feel like there was such a strong move away from the "burnt Starbucks norm" that all of the good shops feature extremely light roasted coffee that, IMO, doesn't stand up in milk drinks well and is usually way too acidic for me. If you know of a place that serves a great medium-roasted, chocolatey/nutty cappuccino, would like to find it!
- jowiar 11y agoMuch like there was a "hop escalation" in IPAs, there's definitely been a "sour escalation" in coffee. It's fallen off a bit in recent years, but around 2012, it was bad (I'm looking at you, Intelligentsia!). Roasters became accustomed to the sourness of the coffee, to make each new coffee taste "right", they had to make it more, and more sour. For those of us who didn't consume coffee in quite the volumes of the professionals, it didn't go over well.
- the-dude 11y agoWell, I just have to shamefully plug the meCoffee PID ( https://mecoffee.nl https://mecoffee.nl ). The product is just picking up a bit of steam. Disclosure: mine.
- mantesso 11y agoLooks interesting. Can it be installed on a Gaggia Classic?
- the-dude 11y agoThanks. Yes it can, we already acquired a Classic and will produce a manual and video for it. But we can guide you through by email. The meCoffee can be installed in practically every espresso machine which has no electronics of it's own. It is Faston(tm) connectors all the way down...
- peapicker 11y agoSuper cool! I'm tempted to up my Silvia's game (I've a v2 from ~2003), but the lack of iOS app has me less likely to go there -- although I know you're just getting off the ground and things take time. Nice work all around!
- the-dude 11y agoYou should definitely PID your machine, the increase in taste and consistency is amazing.
- polishninja 11y agoPID Controller, if you don't know what one is. (I didn't) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
- ashmud 11y agoIf you've worked in industry and/or programming PLCs, you've probably come across PID loops before. Maybe not as accurate, but a simpler explanation: http://plchowto.com/plc-pid/ http://plchowto.com/plc-pid/
- petra 11y agoI'm curious: Since the problem was clear to anybody in the field - temperature control, and there's a whole field dealing with control where PID is bread & butter,so it's quite simple to ask for a solution , why did it take something unique and tinkering to add PID to coffee machines ? why didn't companies in the field just implement this as part of their product development(maybe aiming for the higher end) ?
- the-dude 11y agoI was told by a professional coffee technician manufacturers experimented with electronic temp sensors 15-20 years ago but they were prone to failure. Field service is expensive. This is for the professional machine ( 2 - 3 groups ). They have always used pressostats which are very reliable but they wear due to arcing. For the home market, lots of machines are not heat-exchangers and therefore need to run a lot cooler ( 100c instead of around 120c ). A pressostat does not work well in this range and they just mount cheap thermostats.
- abernson 11y agoThis is more or less what I've heard. Early espresso machine tech was based off mechanical relays, and they didn't play well with early electronic temp sensors. Also, temperature stability was not really a thing anyone was talking about to that degree, so it wasn't a priority for manufacturers until noise was raised.
- brunoqc 11y agoIs there any proof that a PID is worth it?
- abernson 11y agoHi everyone, I'm the post author. Feel free to ask me any questions and I'll answer as best I can.
- thatcat 11y agoDoes anyone know what the thermal stability system, which is more precise than the PID on the graph represents?
- abernson 11y agoHi! Disclaimer, I wrote the piece for LM. That's a graph from La Marzocco's internal documents and represents the total heat stability architecture of their machines, including boiler and grouphead design, preheating, tuned PIDs, etc.
- caligastia 11y agoAnybody had espresso from a Mirage? http://www.keesvanderwesten.com/mirage-special-features.html http://www.keesvanderwesten.com/mirage-special-features.html Awesome use of a PID loop.
- lafar6502 11y agois anybody buying $7K home coffee machine + only $500 for side panels and $200 for flexible steam pipe?