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I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankful

by yc1010 11y ago

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly watch Russian news and entertainment channels via satellite, and the unashamed propaganda and brainwashing is incredible to behold, whats worse is how my parents/relatives believe everything they hear even if it is absolutely absurd or borderline conspiracy crazy. We often argue nowadays about the direction Russia has taken, but usually the arguments end once i ask "where would you want your grand children to grow up, here in the western Europe or back home", that's when they go quiet. They truly believe that Putin is some sort of a genius (ignoring the rise in oil prices that helped him) and this is actually downright scary :( at least in the Soviet days people didn't buy the propaganda, now a lot of people seem to actually believe all they hear and see, and live under a sort of a massive reality distortion field where the world is out to destroy Russia and its people. aside: interestingly enough back then the collapse of USSR was partly prompted by low oil prices and a stupid war with Islamists, fast forward 30+ years and economy is even more reliant on resource extraction and Putin is boldly marching into another quagmire

ctdonath 11y ago
Can you elaborate on differences/similarities between that system being a "corrupt, inefficient pile of BS" driven by propaganda, vs the socialistic "government should take care of everyone, by redistributing wealth" prominently posted in HN discussions (a la "guaranteed basic income", "reduced work weeks", "free healthcare/education/etc", "everyone has a right to _____ which others earned", etc - all requiring a dominating government taking what isn't theirs to take, all sounding wonderful but crushingly impossible in implementation a la USSR)? (Obviously I'm biased, but I am trying to make an earnest question. Russian communism sounded great too, even as you note: your parents still fall for the propaganda. Wish I could ask in a more neutral tone, but it's an inherently divisive subject.)
- yc1010 11y ago
  It was never communism back in USSR, it was authoritarianism where all power flowed to the Kremlin marching under the Socialist banner, 30 years its the same shit but to the tune of Nationalism. The economy still remains resource extraction bound (more so now), corruption goes all the way to the top (see Sochi). One quote from my mother sums it up when we moved here in middle of 90s when she learned that in Europe this thing called welfare exists "So we were building Socialism for 70 years, and they had it here all along" BTW they didnt fall for propaganda back then, it was mocked if anything, but the modern take on it by the Russian state controlled media is actually incredible to behold in how it works, hell just look at some of the replies above that my post attracted to see it in action.
- wolf550e 11y ago
  A given level of technology allows a county with given resources (e.g. petroleum, good engineers, conquered peoples being exploited far away, etc.) to have some total amount of wealth. The ruling class will give the bottom 99% some part of the wealth (not 99%, but hopefully 50%) to keep them subdued. The closer technology is to Star Trek's replicators, the more realistic free housing, food, utilities are. In such a society, people are by default artists, not farmers or workers. The people who becomes doctors and teachers and do not get compensated by their patients or students, need to be compensated by the government which needs to have something people want. In the USSR, people spent most of their money, time and energy just hustling for the basic necessities. Note: I was born in Leningrad, but know of life there only from my parents.
- ajuc 11y ago
  Working electricity, sewers, courts, police, and road netowork all require "a dominating government taking what isn't theirs to take" on the same level that free healthcare and university education do. I was a kid in 80s in communist Poland. It was shitty place, with a lot of absurd propaganda nobody (including the people making a living spewing it, or beating up the protesters) believed. Free education and healthcare had nothing to do with it. Main differences between communism and modern social democracies: - independent organisations were banned or discriminated, now they are encouraged - people were paid to spy on each other with the REAL money (you couldn't buy a car in a month with any amount of money, but if you told the right person that your neighbor listens to radio free europa and prints leaflets - you could get one no problem) - think this one through - no matter how good brain surgeon or rocket scientist or nobel prize writer you are - you won't get a car unless you wait for 10 or 20 years. Spying on your neighbors (or knowing the right people and doing them favours) can solve this in a week. Consider the incentives this sets up throught the whole society. - there was just one employer (the state) - social trust was nonexistent - you could only trust your family - you had to apply for a permission to leave the country, and often when they gave you that permission you had to sign with secret service that you are a spy - so they can later blackmail you with it I see no reason to think policies like free education till M.A. are in any way connected to these problems, since Poland had free education and healthcare both now and during communism, yet we don't do the bad things I listed anymore. For the record - I didn't downvoted you and I don't understand why somebody woulld do that for asking a question. BTW: free university education seems like much better than paid, because as a kid you work harder in school for better grades to go to better university. As a kid of poor parents in system with paid universities you just can't work hard enough to go to Harward (well there are stipends I guess, so they do see this problem). As a parent it works too - in paid system you spend more time at work to afford better education for your kids. In free system - you teach your kids more so they get better grades and go to a better university. IMHO it's obvious which system sets up the incentives better.
dijit 11y ago
I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was not "good" vs "evil" or, "propaganda" vs "truth". What I saw was exactly the same shit, I spoke to natives in both places, I travelled around. Russia has it's side of the story and America has theirs, America is good at spreading it's propaganda outside of it's borders and fostering the image of "the beacon of light and purity of the world" but those who actually take a sceptical or inquisitive eye to America see an insidious underbelly which is only parabled by that in Russia. Russia is guilty of being no more evil than the US government, if anything they're more honest with their intentions. The differing factor is that we bought the kool-aid.
- yc1010 11y ago
  Ah "America does it" strawman, there must be a handbook on internet trolling or something made back in the old country now. Every single time, every single time, same crap gets regurgitated. "Why are we invading yet another country? Oh because America did it too!" "Why are our rights being eroded? Oh because America does it!" and so on... I been back to Russia and crisscrossed the US over the last decade, I would pick the US for all its problems over Russia any day as a place to live. Anyways I am quite happy here in Europe for now.
  - 3princip 11y ago
    Well, it's fine if you call out Russia on principle, as long as that principle applies to the US as well. But you seem to suggest that the US is a nicer place to live, so it's fine that they've waged aggressive wars all over the globe for more than half a century?
    - knowaveragejoe 11y ago
      The US is, without question, a nicer place to live than Russia. If you think otherwise, you've either never been to the US or you haven't seen the level of poverty that is widespread outside Russia's major cities. There are small pockets of prosperity in Russia, outside of those, nobody acclimated to western standards of living would consider them equatable.
snitko 11y ago
While all you are saying is true, I also think the very same kind of propaganda, but actually much more efficient, is happening in Europe and the US. People go absolutely insane if you start questioning democracy, social programs or anything that a state does. When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in general) because of the lack of regulations or government interference, they go in denial. People in Europe and even in the US are so much more brainwashed into believing they need a state that it's painful to even start conversations with them. The most notable case just happened in Finland, where reportedly the police asked citizens to rat on pizza places who sell pizza for less than 6.5 EUR because the government believes a place selling pizzas for less cannot be profitable. In my book, that's almost what a communist state with price controls looks like. I'd like my kids to grow up in Russia. I like it that, at least when it comes to personal income, the tax rate is 13% (although fundamentally, I believe there should be no taxation). I like it that I have more freedom here than in Europe or the US. The only thing I don't like is the government of any kind telling me or my family what products or services I can use and for how much. Unfortunately that happens in many other countries too and especially so in Europe or the US.
- AlexandrB 11y ago
  You have no idea what you're talking about. Corruption at all levels of government is rampant in Russia. It's the norm to have to pay off multiple officials when trying to get something built/renovated. Russia doesn't give a fuck about its own people, to the Russian government lives are expendable if needed [1]. The alcoholism and suicide rate in Russia is monstrous [2], and is probably caused by the lack of opportunity. > In my book, that's almost what a communist state with price controls looks like. No. A communist state looks like the murder of millions for the sake of "security"[3]. > I'd like my kids to grow up in Russia. I like it that, at least when it comes to personal income, the tax rate is 13%... Actually it's even better than you think. 13% of $0 is still $0. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Russia [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
marincounty 11y ago
I'll take you word that living in Russia today is better than what your parents went through. I've only watched Russia from afar. As a kid, I heard about the shortages of TP, and in some cases food, but I don't remember you guys having a homeless problem? Or, huge masses of people in extreme poverty. My views don't matter. I was young. As I stated, I'll take your word it's better now. I have one question about modern Russia. The question is "How does anything in business get done with all the corruption, bribes, killings, and just illegial behavior?" I know Russia is not the only country with huge levels of seemingly stifling corruption, and your conversion to capitalism is very early. And yes, even the U.S. has corruption, but here, you can only get away with so much, for so long. As much as I despise our system sometimes; I am proud of our checks and balances. In your opinion, how many decades will it take in order to stifle the corruption. From my perspective, I just couldn't imagine doing business in that country. I don't even trust .ru domains? Am I being overly paranoid?
- cema 11y ago
  I don't remember you guys having a homeless problem? Or, huge masses of people in extreme poverty. Both existed. Homeless people were escorted outside of big cities (often jailed, but not always), so foreign journalists would not see them on the streets of the places they were allowed to visit. I estimate the level of homelessness was less than that of the USA, however. The level of poverty, in my estimation, was much higher, and it affected the most vulnerable members of the society, primarily the elderly.
forgotpwtomain 11y ago
> inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart You must have never lived in Russia post Soviet Union nor experienced how much worse it is to be spouting this crap. No one believes Putin is a genius - but in fact the country was so badly ruined under Yeltsin and Oligarchical capitalism-free-for-all that Putin appeared to people as the best possible option of these.
- yc1010 11y ago
  I was there till the middle of 90s i see the worst of the post-collapse, yes things got worse but Putin is not some genius savior who rode in on a white horse to save Russia from evil capitalism as is the prevailing narrative nowadays. Rising oil prices and modernization of the oil industry by a certain oligarch whose company was then taken from him by Putin is where most of the money came from, money then used by Putin to grab more power. What followed the USSR was a wild west free for all bringing out the worst of capitalism, with even more corruption and organised crime taking over daily lives of just about everyone. It is tragic and sad that Russia could not transition to a modern economy like some Eastern European countries done. Putin loves to push the story that without him Russia will go back to the bad old days of "democracy and capitalism" of the 90s, and that his way is the only way forward. The whole thing is awful similar to what was argued in Germany in 30s btw.
  - forgotpwtomain 11y ago
    > Putin loves to push the story that without him Russia will go back to the bad old days of "democracy and capitalism" of the 90s, and that his way is the only way forward. The whole thing is awful similar to what was argued in Germany in 30s btw. I'm definitely not arguing in support of Putin here - what I'm saying is two things: a) the popular support of Putin is understandable in the face of recent history. b) Quality of life in Russia today is well below what it was in the 1980's (ask any of the 99%). Other than that it might as well be one type of state sponsored propaganda replaced by another.
- lostmsu 11y ago
  > No one believes Putin is a genius Oh, man, I wish this was true. Just like Dmitri back in Russia I tried to prevent elections fraud, and even though I myself got forcibly removed from the site, and my friends recorded fraud, some my other friends did not care. But that's not the worst: some still think Putin is a genius after knowing that! Now I'm in US. Fuck them.

by yc1010 11y ago

ctdonath 11y ago

Can you elaborate on differences/similarities between that system being a "corrupt, inefficient pile of BS" driven by propaganda, vs the socialistic "government should take care of everyone, by redistributing wealth" prominently posted in HN discussions (a la "guaranteed basic income", "reduced work weeks", "free healthcare/education/etc", "everyone has a right to _____ which others earned", etc - all requiring a dominating government taking what isn't theirs to take, all sounding wonderful but crushingly impossible in implementation a la USSR)? (Obviously I'm biased, but I am trying to make an earnest question. Russian communism sounded great too, even as you note: your parents still fall for the propaganda. Wish I could ask in a more neutral tone, but it's an inherently divisive subject.)

yc1010 11y ago
It was never communism back in USSR, it was authoritarianism where all power flowed to the Kremlin marching under the Socialist banner, 30 years its the same shit but to the tune of Nationalism. The economy still remains resource extraction bound (more so now), corruption goes all the way to the top (see Sochi). One quote from my mother sums it up when we moved here in middle of 90s when she learned that in Europe this thing called welfare exists "So we were building Socialism for 70 years, and they had it here all along" BTW they didnt fall for propaganda back then, it was mocked if anything, but the modern take on it by the Russian state controlled media is actually incredible to behold in how it works, hell just look at some of the replies above that my post attracted to see it in action.
wolf550e 11y ago
A given level of technology allows a county with given resources (e.g. petroleum, good engineers, conquered peoples being exploited far away, etc.) to have some total amount of wealth. The ruling class will give the bottom 99% some part of the wealth (not 99%, but hopefully 50%) to keep them subdued. The closer technology is to Star Trek's replicators, the more realistic free housing, food, utilities are. In such a society, people are by default artists, not farmers or workers. The people who becomes doctors and teachers and do not get compensated by their patients or students, need to be compensated by the government which needs to have something people want. In the USSR, people spent most of their money, time and energy just hustling for the basic necessities. Note: I was born in Leningrad, but know of life there only from my parents.
ajuc 11y ago
Working electricity, sewers, courts, police, and road netowork all require "a dominating government taking what isn't theirs to take" on the same level that free healthcare and university education do. I was a kid in 80s in communist Poland. It was shitty place, with a lot of absurd propaganda nobody (including the people making a living spewing it, or beating up the protesters) believed. Free education and healthcare had nothing to do with it. Main differences between communism and modern social democracies: - independent organisations were banned or discriminated, now they are encouraged - people were paid to spy on each other with the REAL money (you couldn't buy a car in a month with any amount of money, but if you told the right person that your neighbor listens to radio free europa and prints leaflets - you could get one no problem) - think this one through - no matter how good brain surgeon or rocket scientist or nobel prize writer you are - you won't get a car unless you wait for 10 or 20 years. Spying on your neighbors (or knowing the right people and doing them favours) can solve this in a week. Consider the incentives this sets up throught the whole society. - there was just one employer (the state) - social trust was nonexistent - you could only trust your family - you had to apply for a permission to leave the country, and often when they gave you that permission you had to sign with secret service that you are a spy - so they can later blackmail you with it I see no reason to think policies like free education till M.A. are in any way connected to these problems, since Poland had free education and healthcare both now and during communism, yet we don't do the bad things I listed anymore. For the record - I didn't downvoted you and I don't understand why somebody woulld do that for asking a question. BTW: free university education seems like much better than paid, because as a kid you work harder in school for better grades to go to better university. As a kid of poor parents in system with paid universities you just can't work hard enough to go to Harward (well there are stipends I guess, so they do see this problem). As a parent it works too - in paid system you spend more time at work to afford better education for your kids. In free system - you teach your kids more so they get better grades and go to a better university. IMHO it's obvious which system sets up the incentives better.

dijit 11y ago

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was not "good" vs "evil" or, "propaganda" vs "truth". What I saw was exactly the same shit, I spoke to natives in both places, I travelled around. Russia has it's side of the story and America has theirs, America is good at spreading it's propaganda outside of it's borders and fostering the image of "the beacon of light and purity of the world" but those who actually take a sceptical or inquisitive eye to America see an insidious underbelly which is only parabled by that in Russia. Russia is guilty of being no more evil than the US government, if anything they're more honest with their intentions. The differing factor is that we bought the kool-aid.

yc1010 11y ago
Ah "America does it" strawman, there must be a handbook on internet trolling or something made back in the old country now. Every single time, every single time, same crap gets regurgitated. "Why are we invading yet another country? Oh because America did it too!" "Why are our rights being eroded? Oh because America does it!" and so on... I been back to Russia and crisscrossed the US over the last decade, I would pick the US for all its problems over Russia any day as a place to live. Anyways I am quite happy here in Europe for now.
- 3princip 11y ago
  Well, it's fine if you call out Russia on principle, as long as that principle applies to the US as well. But you seem to suggest that the US is a nicer place to live, so it's fine that they've waged aggressive wars all over the globe for more than half a century?
  - knowaveragejoe 11y ago
    The US is, without question, a nicer place to live than Russia. If you think otherwise, you've either never been to the US or you haven't seen the level of poverty that is widespread outside Russia's major cities. There are small pockets of prosperity in Russia, outside of those, nobody acclimated to western standards of living would consider them equatable.

snitko 11y ago

While all you are saying is true, I also think the very same kind of propaganda, but actually much more efficient, is happening in Europe and the US. People go absolutely insane if you start questioning democracy, social programs or anything that a state does. When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in general) because of the lack of regulations or government interference, they go in denial. People in Europe and even in the US are so much more brainwashed into believing they need a state that it's painful to even start conversations with them. The most notable case just happened in Finland, where reportedly the police asked citizens to rat on pizza places who sell pizza for less than 6.5 EUR because the government believes a place selling pizzas for less cannot be profitable. In my book, that's almost what a communist state with price controls looks like. I'd like my kids to grow up in Russia. I like it that, at least when it comes to personal income, the tax rate is 13% (although fundamentally, I believe there should be no taxation). I like it that I have more freedom here than in Europe or the US. The only thing I don't like is the government of any kind telling me or my family what products or services I can use and for how much. Unfortunately that happens in many other countries too and especially so in Europe or the US.

AlexandrB 11y ago
You have no idea what you're talking about. Corruption at all levels of government is rampant in Russia. It's the norm to have to pay off multiple officials when trying to get something built/renovated. Russia doesn't give a fuck about its own people, to the Russian government lives are expendable if needed [1]. The alcoholism and suicide rate in Russia is monstrous [2], and is probably caused by the lack of opportunity. > In my book, that's almost what a communist state with price controls looks like. No. A communist state looks like the murder of millions for the sake of "security"[3]. > I'd like my kids to grow up in Russia. I like it that, at least when it comes to personal income, the tax rate is 13%... Actually it's even better than you think. 13% of $0 is still $0. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Russia [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

marincounty 11y ago

I'll take you word that living in Russia today is better than what your parents went through. I've only watched Russia from afar. As a kid, I heard about the shortages of TP, and in some cases food, but I don't remember you guys having a homeless problem? Or, huge masses of people in extreme poverty. My views don't matter. I was young. As I stated, I'll take your word it's better now. I have one question about modern Russia. The question is "How does anything in business get done with all the corruption, bribes, killings, and just illegial behavior?" I know Russia is not the only country with huge levels of seemingly stifling corruption, and your conversion to capitalism is very early. And yes, even the U.S. has corruption, but here, you can only get away with so much, for so long. As much as I despise our system sometimes; I am proud of our checks and balances. In your opinion, how many decades will it take in order to stifle the corruption. From my perspective, I just couldn't imagine doing business in that country. I don't even trust .ru domains? Am I being overly paranoid?

cema 11y ago
I don't remember you guys having a homeless problem? Or, huge masses of people in extreme poverty. Both existed. Homeless people were escorted outside of big cities (often jailed, but not always), so foreign journalists would not see them on the streets of the places they were allowed to visit. I estimate the level of homelessness was less than that of the USA, however. The level of poverty, in my estimation, was much higher, and it affected the most vulnerable members of the society, primarily the elderly.

forgotpwtomain 11y ago

> inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart You must have never lived in Russia post Soviet Union nor experienced how much worse it is to be spouting this crap. No one believes Putin is a genius - but in fact the country was so badly ruined under Yeltsin and Oligarchical capitalism-free-for-all that Putin appeared to people as the best possible option of these.

yc1010 11y ago
I was there till the middle of 90s i see the worst of the post-collapse, yes things got worse but Putin is not some genius savior who rode in on a white horse to save Russia from evil capitalism as is the prevailing narrative nowadays. Rising oil prices and modernization of the oil industry by a certain oligarch whose company was then taken from him by Putin is where most of the money came from, money then used by Putin to grab more power. What followed the USSR was a wild west free for all bringing out the worst of capitalism, with even more corruption and organised crime taking over daily lives of just about everyone. It is tragic and sad that Russia could not transition to a modern economy like some Eastern European countries done. Putin loves to push the story that without him Russia will go back to the bad old days of "democracy and capitalism" of the 90s, and that his way is the only way forward. The whole thing is awful similar to what was argued in Germany in 30s btw.
- forgotpwtomain 11y ago
  > Putin loves to push the story that without him Russia will go back to the bad old days of "democracy and capitalism" of the 90s, and that his way is the only way forward. The whole thing is awful similar to what was argued in Germany in 30s btw. I'm definitely not arguing in support of Putin here - what I'm saying is two things: a) the popular support of Putin is understandable in the face of recent history. b) Quality of life in Russia today is well below what it was in the 1980's (ask any of the 99%). Other than that it might as well be one type of state sponsored propaganda replaced by another.
lostmsu 11y ago
> No one believes Putin is a genius Oh, man, I wish this was true. Just like Dmitri back in Russia I tried to prevent elections fraud, and even though I myself got forcibly removed from the site, and my friends recorded fraud, some my other friends did not care. But that's not the worst: some still think Putin is a genius after knowing that! Now I'm in US. Fuck them.