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"Put another way: Propaganda works. Putin has understood that from Day" We can be only glad that Western media (including the NY Times) has never been used for

"Put another way: Propaganda works. Putin has understood that from Day" We can be only glad that Western media (including the NY Times) has never been used for propaganda and all information is absolutely objective, reproducible, and a hundred percent trustworthy. Has anybody already found the WMDs in Iraq?

knowaveragejoe 11y ago
To put the two in the same category is a bit much: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/04/russia-s-propaganda-blitzkrieg.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/04/russia-s-pr...
- dmichulke 11y ago
  Well, one killed intentionally from 150k up to 600k people [0], the other one (if it was "him" and if it was intentionally) some 300. So not really the same category... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War To be more specific: I don't see any of the features prcolaimed by the West (honest government, no interference in other country's business, avoid civilian kills) upheld by themselves. Also to note, I don't think Putin does it either.
  - knowaveragejoe 11y ago
    I fail to see how we went from comparing media in the two spheres of influence and whether it's propaganda to this comparison of specific actions cherry-picked from history.
  - dave_sullivan 11y ago
    I do pay attention to the way Russia does propaganda and I've noticed one common tactic is to call out some hypocrisy of the US, then use that to completely skirt the first issue. For instance "Why does Russia torture dissidents?" "Ah, sure, like the US doesn't torture people that disagree with them..." So move along because Russia doesn't torture people? Or it's OK because America does too? Or many Americans don't believe America really tortures, so Russia must not really torture either? Or, specific to this discussion: "Why do people believe the Russian propaganda machine?" "Oh, sure, like Americans don't believe their own propaganda cough Iraq war cough." So move along because Russian and American propaganda are similar? Both of those (US tortures people and Iraq war was sold with a lie) are true. The weird trick is that getting someone to admit that two parties are remotely similar makes them much more similar in our minds than we intended (our minds think in black and white, villains and heroes, "somewhere in between" is a strange and modern concept). Suddenly, you are much less worried about Russia because the US is doing it too. Or rather, you're not worried about the US, so why worry about Russia? The other favorite is appeals to nationalism: "How do you respond to protesters in the capital?" "They are not real Russians, just look, some of their signs are in English, they are meant as propaganda for the Western media. All the real Russians understand what we are doing, despite the best efforts of the West." But while we're at it, I'll raise your 600k people to the tens of millions that died during the reign of the USSR.
  - AlexandrB 11y ago
    > Well, one killed intentionally from 150k up to 600k people [0], the other one (if it was "him" and if it was intentionally) some 300. Can't tell if you're joking or just don't know anything about the region. The Second Chechen War under Putin claimed some 25,0000 civilian lives [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War
berntb 11y ago
If you read wikipedia etc, there seems to be a consensus that the Bush administration really believed that Saddam Hussein's Iraq still had the weapon programs going. Personally, I think that with all the leaks it would be known if Bush lied. For instance, some Russian source published death and maiming data for the Ukrainian war by mistake [regarding costs for pensions etc]. No one is saying that politicians don't lie. But there are levels in Hell. There is, in these two cases, a big difference between the incompetence of the Bush administration and systematic disinformation. But I suspect you know this already... Edit: It is also a bit much to make the US responsible for civilians killed by people also trying to kill American soldiers. To start with, you need to subtract all the people the Hussein regime would have murdered over the years, if it hadn't been kicked out. Edit 2: 3princip: The WMD thing was probably an excuse for Bush, sure. But I answered the claim that this WMD excuse was a LIE -- which seems to not be true. So it is you that miss the point. (And this is a serious place so give serious references, not some generic youtube video.)
- 3princip 11y ago
  That's incredibly naive but besides the point. The US has weapons of mass destruction, so does Russia, and China, and Pakistan, and India and Israel. Keep in mind the context, this was the second such invasion of Iraq, the first war being conducted by Bush Sr, having failed to discourage Saddam from attacking Kuwait[1]. In between the two wars the US bombing and sanctions caused the deaths of an estimated 500000 children[2]. So trying to justify the glaring lies, as some kind of buffoonery, especially in the context of what had been done to Iraq for the previous decade, is naive in my opinion. [1] http://www.globalresearch.ca/gulf-war-documents-meeting-between-saddam-hussein-and-ambassador-to-iraq-april-glaspie/31145 http://www.globalresearch.ca/gulf-war-documents-meeting-betw... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0WDCYcUJ4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0WDCYcUJ4o
cpncrunch 11y ago
>Has anybody already found the WMDs in Iraq? The media (at least in the UK) was saying there were no WMDs in the days leading up to the vote in parliament.

knowaveragejoe 11y ago

To put the two in the same category is a bit much: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/04/russia-s-propaganda-blitzkrieg.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/04/russia-s-pr...

dmichulke 11y ago
Well, one killed intentionally from 150k up to 600k people [0], the other one (if it was "him" and if it was intentionally) some 300. So not really the same category... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War To be more specific: I don't see any of the features prcolaimed by the West (honest government, no interference in other country's business, avoid civilian kills) upheld by themselves. Also to note, I don't think Putin does it either.
- knowaveragejoe 11y ago
  I fail to see how we went from comparing media in the two spheres of influence and whether it's propaganda to this comparison of specific actions cherry-picked from history.
- dave_sullivan 11y ago
  I do pay attention to the way Russia does propaganda and I've noticed one common tactic is to call out some hypocrisy of the US, then use that to completely skirt the first issue. For instance "Why does Russia torture dissidents?" "Ah, sure, like the US doesn't torture people that disagree with them..." So move along because Russia doesn't torture people? Or it's OK because America does too? Or many Americans don't believe America really tortures, so Russia must not really torture either? Or, specific to this discussion: "Why do people believe the Russian propaganda machine?" "Oh, sure, like Americans don't believe their own propaganda cough Iraq war cough." So move along because Russian and American propaganda are similar? Both of those (US tortures people and Iraq war was sold with a lie) are true. The weird trick is that getting someone to admit that two parties are remotely similar makes them much more similar in our minds than we intended (our minds think in black and white, villains and heroes, "somewhere in between" is a strange and modern concept). Suddenly, you are much less worried about Russia because the US is doing it too. Or rather, you're not worried about the US, so why worry about Russia? The other favorite is appeals to nationalism: "How do you respond to protesters in the capital?" "They are not real Russians, just look, some of their signs are in English, they are meant as propaganda for the Western media. All the real Russians understand what we are doing, despite the best efforts of the West." But while we're at it, I'll raise your 600k people to the tens of millions that died during the reign of the USSR.
- AlexandrB 11y ago
  > Well, one killed intentionally from 150k up to 600k people [0], the other one (if it was "him" and if it was intentionally) some 300. Can't tell if you're joking or just don't know anything about the region. The Second Chechen War under Putin claimed some 25,0000 civilian lives [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

berntb 11y ago

If you read wikipedia etc, there seems to be a consensus that the Bush administration really believed that Saddam Hussein's Iraq still had the weapon programs going. Personally, I think that with all the leaks it would be known if Bush lied. For instance, some Russian source published death and maiming data for the Ukrainian war by mistake [regarding costs for pensions etc]. No one is saying that politicians don't lie. But there are levels in Hell. There is, in these two cases, a big difference between the incompetence of the Bush administration and systematic disinformation. But I suspect you know this already... Edit: It is also a bit much to make the US responsible for civilians killed by people also trying to kill American soldiers. To start with, you need to subtract all the people the Hussein regime would have murdered over the years, if it hadn't been kicked out. Edit 2: 3princip: The WMD thing was probably an excuse for Bush, sure. But I answered the claim that this WMD excuse was a LIE -- which seems to not be true. So it is you that miss the point. (And this is a serious place so give serious references, not some generic youtube video.)

3princip 11y ago
That's incredibly naive but besides the point. The US has weapons of mass destruction, so does Russia, and China, and Pakistan, and India and Israel. Keep in mind the context, this was the second such invasion of Iraq, the first war being conducted by Bush Sr, having failed to discourage Saddam from attacking Kuwait[1]. In between the two wars the US bombing and sanctions caused the deaths of an estimated 500000 children[2]. So trying to justify the glaring lies, as some kind of buffoonery, especially in the context of what had been done to Iraq for the previous decade, is naive in my opinion. [1] http://www.globalresearch.ca/gulf-war-documents-meeting-between-saddam-hussein-and-ambassador-to-iraq-april-glaspie/31145 http://www.globalresearch.ca/gulf-war-documents-meeting-betw... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0WDCYcUJ4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0WDCYcUJ4o

cpncrunch 11y ago

>Has anybody already found the WMDs in Iraq? The media (at least in the UK) was saying there were no WMDs in the days leading up to the vote in parliament.