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It's ok if people disagree or don't see the point. Much of the fun of Lisp is the initial discovery. But if we make them feel singled out or like there's some

by laarc 11y ago

It's ok if people disagree or don't see the point. Much of the fun of Lisp is the initial discovery. But if we make them feel singled out or like there's something they "don't get," then they'll miss all the fun, because they won't try it out.

klibertp 11y ago
> It's ok if people disagree Well, certainly, but on what basis? Is a "gut feeling" enough of an argument to go against established definitions and facts? I didn't want to be rude - I wanted to provoke a bit of research on the part of millstone. I might have utterly failed, but my intentions were good...
- laarc 11y ago
  I might have utterly failed, but my intentions were good No no, if anyone failed, it was me! Don't worry about it. If I'd done a better job showing people, or if I'd given them something to play with, then words would've been unnecessary. We're all in it together. Part of the challenge is making everyone feel like they can do great things. Is a "gut feeling" enough? Counter-intuitively, it seems like the answer is yes, for two reasons: (a) It prevents me from fooling myself. If I say "Look how beautiful this design is," people will push back if most disagree. (b) If young people don't want to build cool stuff with Lisp, then that's alarming to someone who intends to grow Lisp, as I do. And young people turn out to be the most likely to vocalize a negative gut reaction. The trick is to be aware when (a) happens, but to brush it off if you're right and the world is wrong. It's as hard as it sounds. I usually run the language past some friends and tell them to be as cynical as possible, then think of ways their critique is justified. The discoveries from that process have been so cool. For example, the outermost parens of a Lisp expression are unnecessary: (def even (x) (is (mod x 2) 0)) should read def even (x) (is (mod x 2) 0) It's obvious once it's pointed out, but I was the least likely to realize it. "What's with the parens? I actually like them, but why do you put in the extra ones?" "What extra ones?" Whether it's a good idea to formally drop them is a different question, but now I know to check. It'd break all existing Lisp auto-indent plugins. But that could be worthwhile; it depends. User testing has been pretty great.

by laarc 11y ago

klibertp 11y ago

> It's ok if people disagree Well, certainly, but on what basis? Is a "gut feeling" enough of an argument to go against established definitions and facts? I didn't want to be rude - I wanted to provoke a bit of research on the part of millstone. I might have utterly failed, but my intentions were good...

laarc 11y ago
I might have utterly failed, but my intentions were good No no, if anyone failed, it was me! Don't worry about it. If I'd done a better job showing people, or if I'd given them something to play with, then words would've been unnecessary. We're all in it together. Part of the challenge is making everyone feel like they can do great things. Is a "gut feeling" enough? Counter-intuitively, it seems like the answer is yes, for two reasons: (a) It prevents me from fooling myself. If I say "Look how beautiful this design is," people will push back if most disagree. (b) If young people don't want to build cool stuff with Lisp, then that's alarming to someone who intends to grow Lisp, as I do. And young people turn out to be the most likely to vocalize a negative gut reaction. The trick is to be aware when (a) happens, but to brush it off if you're right and the world is wrong. It's as hard as it sounds. I usually run the language past some friends and tell them to be as cynical as possible, then think of ways their critique is justified. The discoveries from that process have been so cool. For example, the outermost parens of a Lisp expression are unnecessary: (def even (x) (is (mod x 2) 0)) should read def even (x) (is (mod x 2) 0) It's obvious once it's pointed out, but I was the least likely to realize it. "What's with the parens? I actually like them, but why do you put in the extra ones?" "What extra ones?" Whether it's a good idea to formally drop them is a different question, but now I know to check. It'd break all existing Lisp auto-indent plugins. But that could be worthwhile; it depends. User testing has been pretty great.