4 ms·

But even locked back then just meant, "locked for the typical user." We're getting to the point where like cars before us, we aren't working on Chevy small bloc

But even locked back then just meant, "locked for the typical user." We're getting to the point where like cars before us, we aren't working on Chevy small blocks anymore.

pandaman 11y ago
And now "locked" means something else? There is no absolutely locked hardware that I know. If Apple can update OS on their phones it's not by some magical power that nobody else can possible posses.
- rdancer 11y ago
  Get acquainted with the magic of public key cryptography code signing.
- scintill76 11y ago
  > If Apple can update OS on their phones it's not by some magical power that nobody else can possible posses. Yeah, it's only signed by cryptographic keys that nobody else is likely to ever possess. You "only" need to put in a new Boot ROM with your own key ("When an iOS device is turned on, its application processor immediately executes code from read-only memory known as the Boot ROM. [...] The Boot ROM code contains the Apple Root CA public key, which is used to verify that the Low-Level Bootloader (LLB) is signed by Apple before allowing it to load." https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf) AFAICT this ROM is probably deeply integrated into the CPU, so hopefully you have some really precise tools and/or plan to make your own replacement CPU as well.
  - pandaman 11y ago
    Ah, I guess the signed bootloader is the 100% protection. Too bad PS3 did not have one, right?
    - scintill76 11y ago
      The PS3 does have a crypto key, but it was recovered by hackers because Sony reused nonces in ECDSA signatures: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.crypt/3isJl28Slrw https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.crypt/3isJl28Slr... Apple's probably isn't susceptible, especially with the PS3 failure in recent memory.
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        Yup. Companies are pushing unlocking the devices into seriously illegal territory. Yes, in principle you can unlock anything - you can always kidnap the CEO and beat him with $4 crowbar until he gives you the key. In practice we would like to be able to do it without harming people.
      - pandaman 11y ago
        I am not an Apple user but I cannot help but notice some kind of "jailbreak" business going on there. Could it, perhaps, involve breaching iPhone security in some way that could lead to loading arbitrary code with system privileged and even modyfing the OS itself? It sure looks this way from a cursory googling. It appears Apple had been and still is susceptible to various attacks. As is every other company.
        lmm 11y ago
        It's never going to be impossible to access these devices (and I suspect Apple deliberately doesn't make it too hard). But every year it gets more expensive, riskier, and requires more specialised knowledge. Modern BluRay keys are already out of reach for a casual home user (speaking as someone who tried to play my own BluRays on Linux). Soon we'll be at the point where you need a cleanroom and an electron microscope to bypass protection.

But even locked back then just meant, "locked for the typical user." We're getting to the point where like cars before us, we aren't working on Chevy small blocks anymore.

pandaman 11y ago

And now "locked" means something else? There is no absolutely locked hardware that I know. If Apple can update OS on their phones it's not by some magical power that nobody else can possible posses.

rdancer 11y ago
Get acquainted with the magic of public key cryptography code signing.
scintill76 11y ago
> If Apple can update OS on their phones it's not by some magical power that nobody else can possible posses. Yeah, it's only signed by cryptographic keys that nobody else is likely to ever possess. You "only" need to put in a new Boot ROM with your own key ("When an iOS device is turned on, its application processor immediately executes code from read-only memory known as the Boot ROM. [...] The Boot ROM code contains the Apple Root CA public key, which is used to verify that the Low-Level Bootloader (LLB) is signed by Apple before allowing it to load." https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf) AFAICT this ROM is probably deeply integrated into the CPU, so hopefully you have some really precise tools and/or plan to make your own replacement CPU as well.
- pandaman 11y ago
  Ah, I guess the signed bootloader is the 100% protection. Too bad PS3 did not have one, right?
  - scintill76 11y ago
    The PS3 does have a crypto key, but it was recovered by hackers because Sony reused nonces in ECDSA signatures: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.crypt/3isJl28Slrw https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.crypt/3isJl28Slr... Apple's probably isn't susceptible, especially with the PS3 failure in recent memory.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      Yup. Companies are pushing unlocking the devices into seriously illegal territory. Yes, in principle you can unlock anything - you can always kidnap the CEO and beat him with $4 crowbar until he gives you the key. In practice we would like to be able to do it without harming people.
    - pandaman 11y ago
      I am not an Apple user but I cannot help but notice some kind of "jailbreak" business going on there. Could it, perhaps, involve breaching iPhone security in some way that could lead to loading arbitrary code with system privileged and even modyfing the OS itself? It sure looks this way from a cursory googling. It appears Apple had been and still is susceptible to various attacks. As is every other company.
      - lmm 11y ago
        It's never going to be impossible to access these devices (and I suspect Apple deliberately doesn't make it too hard). But every year it gets more expensive, riskier, and requires more specialised knowledge. Modern BluRay keys are already out of reach for a casual home user (speaking as someone who tried to play my own BluRays on Linux). Soon we'll be at the point where you need a cleanroom and an electron microscope to bypass protection.