4 ms·

Sleep is just the same as ever, say scientists

52 points by chrismealy 11y ago

_delirium 11y ago
There's a little more detail in this article imo: http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-... Including the question I was wondering about: do the authors think the historians who have argued medieval Europeans had segmented sleep were therefore wrong, and humans have never slept like that? The answer seems to be "no", but here the explanation gets to be what sounds, to me at least, plausible but a bit speculative, [The historian Roger] Ekirch combed through centuries of Western literature and documents to show that Europeans used to sleep in two segments, separated by an hour or two of wakefulness. [Author of the present study Jerome] Siegel doesn’t dispute Ekirch’s analysis; he just thinks that the old two-block pattern was preceded by an even older single-block one. “The two-sleep pattern was probably due to humans migrating so far from the equator that they had long dark periods,” he says. “The long nights caused this pathological sleep pattern and the advent of electric lights and heating restored the primal one.”
- Erikun 11y ago
  Very interesting. It is also much more informative than the Guardian article, for instance: "The data revealed that these groups all sleep for nightly blocks of 6.9 and 8.5 hours, and they spend at least 5.7 to 7.1 hours of those soundly asleep."
zafka 11y ago
"Scientists say" Or perhaps "one researcher says" I found it interesting that his study was done on people living as they did millenia ago, but they were ok wearing fitbits. Tht other big question that pops up in my mind is" What about siesta?
zobzu 11y ago
This seems pretty random as usual. There's an easy test that applies to yourself only though. Go to a place without tv/internet/books (electricity is fine) for a week, where you exercise outdoors and spend time with people. I always end up sleeping 2-3h more (from 6h regularly to 9h!), wake up earlier, and sleep earlier - and in fact, feel better. Most of the rest is just the stress inducing work/city life most of us zombies "have" to go through.
- eru 11y ago
  I have internet and everything, and just sleep 9h normally. When camping, I just go to bed earlier and wake up earlier.
- weland 11y ago
  This is highly anecdotic and I'd be happy to counteract it with the opposite experience. Whenever I spend enough time in the outdoors (I used to go camping regularly until a few years ago), I'd end up sleeping less and going to bed later. I'd generally end up sleeping for about 6-7 hours, from 01:00 or so -- and feeling a lot better in the process.
- scotchmi_st 11y ago
  There are plenty of confounding factors with your own "easy test", some of which you admit yourself- the stress of the life in general. Who's to say that living a neolithic existence isn't stressful? Indeed, it probably is far more stressful. This has nothing to do with electric lights and computers. This is just life in general. At least you can take a break every so often.
  - zobzu 11y ago
    yes id guess the no computer and tv helps with the stress levels, rather than being "because of looking at the screen" by itself.
- zelos 11y ago
  I believe some of that is 'sleep debt', after a few weeks you tend back to 7-8h.
dang 11y ago
Also http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/112251/ http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/112251/ via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10396087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10396087.
mikekchar 11y ago
It is interesting that they suggest that a room that progressively gets colder through the night might help you sleep better. I'm currently living in a fairly warm part of Japan and we have no heat in the house (or air conditioning). I definitely sleep better here than I do when I'm in Canada or the UK. There are probably many other factors (for example, I sleep on the floor in Japan and use a "pillow" that is really just a sack of grain -- it might sound strange, but it is so much nicer than the overly soft trappings of western bedrooms IMHO). I had never really considered temperature as being a factor, though.
- cableshaft 11y ago
  I knew temperature was a factor. I have severe difficulty falling asleep unless I'm slightly chilly, preferably with a fan blowing on me. So probably around 60-65 degrees Fahrenheit. Anything more than 70 degrees and I start to have problems. 78 degrees or higher and I will probably be jumping in the shower, applying wet towels to my legs, maybe bring a cold pack out of the freezer, sit in front of the open refrigerator door for several minutes, anything to try to cool me off, and it will take a couple hours to fall asleep, unless I'm already super exhausted.
x3ro 11y ago
Interestingly, this seems to contradict findings of segmented sleep (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep).
dimitar 11y ago
Having unrealistic expectations of sleep can be dangerous, he said. “If you go to your GP and say doctor I really think I should sleep more, they’ll give you whatever the last sleeping pill rep who was in their office was handing out.” It seems to me that unrealistic expectations are the least dangerous issue in this situation.
bgilroy26 11y ago
The write-up of this article on the economist reported an insignificant % of people suffering from insomnia in premodern communities vs 20% of moderns

52 points by chrismealy 11y ago

There's a little more detail in this article imo: http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-... Including the question I was wondering about: do the authors think the historians who have argued medieval Europeans had segmented sleep were therefore wrong, and humans have never slept like that? The answer seems to be "no", but here the explanation gets to be what sounds, to me at least, plausible but a bit speculative, [The historian Roger] Ekirch combed through centuries of Western literature and documents to show that Europeans used to sleep in two segments, separated by an hour or two of wakefulness. [Author of the present study Jerome] Siegel doesn’t dispute Ekirch’s analysis; he just thinks that the old two-block pattern was preceded by an even older single-block one. “The two-sleep pattern was probably due to humans migrating so far from the equator that they had long dark periods,” he says. “The long nights caused this pathological sleep pattern and the advent of electric lights and heating restored the primal one.”

Erikun 11y ago
Very interesting. It is also much more informative than the Guardian article, for instance: "The data revealed that these groups all sleep for nightly blocks of 6.9 and 8.5 hours, and they spend at least 5.7 to 7.1 hours of those soundly asleep."

zafka 11y ago

"Scientists say" Or perhaps "one researcher says" I found it interesting that his study was done on people living as they did millenia ago, but they were ok wearing fitbits. Tht other big question that pops up in my mind is" What about siesta?

zobzu 11y ago

This seems pretty random as usual. There's an easy test that applies to yourself only though. Go to a place without tv/internet/books (electricity is fine) for a week, where you exercise outdoors and spend time with people. I always end up sleeping 2-3h more (from 6h regularly to 9h!), wake up earlier, and sleep earlier - and in fact, feel better. Most of the rest is just the stress inducing work/city life most of us zombies "have" to go through.

eru 11y ago
I have internet and everything, and just sleep 9h normally. When camping, I just go to bed earlier and wake up earlier.
weland 11y ago
This is highly anecdotic and I'd be happy to counteract it with the opposite experience. Whenever I spend enough time in the outdoors (I used to go camping regularly until a few years ago), I'd end up sleeping less and going to bed later. I'd generally end up sleeping for about 6-7 hours, from 01:00 or so -- and feeling a lot better in the process.
scotchmi_st 11y ago
There are plenty of confounding factors with your own "easy test", some of which you admit yourself- the stress of the life in general. Who's to say that living a neolithic existence isn't stressful? Indeed, it probably is far more stressful. This has nothing to do with electric lights and computers. This is just life in general. At least you can take a break every so often.
- zobzu 11y ago
  yes id guess the no computer and tv helps with the stress levels, rather than being "because of looking at the screen" by itself.
zelos 11y ago
I believe some of that is 'sleep debt', after a few weeks you tend back to 7-8h.

dang 11y ago

Also http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/112251/ http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/112251/ via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10396087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10396087.

mikekchar 11y ago

It is interesting that they suggest that a room that progressively gets colder through the night might help you sleep better. I'm currently living in a fairly warm part of Japan and we have no heat in the house (or air conditioning). I definitely sleep better here than I do when I'm in Canada or the UK. There are probably many other factors (for example, I sleep on the floor in Japan and use a "pillow" that is really just a sack of grain -- it might sound strange, but it is so much nicer than the overly soft trappings of western bedrooms IMHO). I had never really considered temperature as being a factor, though.

cableshaft 11y ago
I knew temperature was a factor. I have severe difficulty falling asleep unless I'm slightly chilly, preferably with a fan blowing on me. So probably around 60-65 degrees Fahrenheit. Anything more than 70 degrees and I start to have problems. 78 degrees or higher and I will probably be jumping in the shower, applying wet towels to my legs, maybe bring a cold pack out of the freezer, sit in front of the open refrigerator door for several minutes, anything to try to cool me off, and it will take a couple hours to fall asleep, unless I'm already super exhausted.

x3ro 11y ago

Interestingly, this seems to contradict findings of segmented sleep (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep).

dimitar 11y ago

Having unrealistic expectations of sleep can be dangerous, he said. “If you go to your GP and say doctor I really think I should sleep more, they’ll give you whatever the last sleeping pill rep who was in their office was handing out.” It seems to me that unrealistic expectations are the least dangerous issue in this situation.

bgilroy26 11y ago

The write-up of this article on the economist reported an insignificant % of people suffering from insomnia in premodern communities vs 20% of moderns