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Kink is actually relatively tame as far as "violent porn" goes. Insex set the standard in hardcore S/M during its day and was actually forced to close over scru

Kink is actually relatively tame as far as "violent porn" goes. Insex set the standard in hardcore S/M during its day and was actually forced to close over scrutiny from its perceived obscenity. Many modern S/M sites owe their style and aesthetic to Insex's grisliness. Speaking of which, a documentary I'd recommend viewing on the topic is Graphic Sexual Horror. Be sure to watch it during the day. Of course, I'm not counting things like guro, crushing or vore. S/M is a long established subculture, though I suppose the more hardcore stuff is relatively recent in practice. I don't think it should be marginalized in the slightest. It's certainly not a joke, however.

sandworm101 11y ago
No doubt insex had a profound effect on culture. Frankly, I would say it is almost comparable to Playboy. The Hostile and Saw film franchises are direct outcomes of insex. What Kink has done is to take insex and add lawyers. They dropped some of the more legally-dangerous aspects (plots/scripts) and added comical "interviews" with all involved. But heaven help the attorneys who might have to defend Kink against obscenity charges. They are in totally unknown waters.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  I don't know if Insex was that influential that it influenced the modern "torture porn" films. Those were brewing for a long time since the exploitation films of the 70s onward. The interview was definitely an Insex plot device, as well. Though my point was the S/M subculture should not really be viewed negatively or marginalized. I somewhat received that sentiment from your parent post.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    Give insex time. Playboy has been around for generations. Insex did interviews during, Kink cut those. Kink does interviews afterwards, out of character, as evidence that the violence was consensual. These are not normally reproduced in filesharing communities. So when someone downloads one of these via filesharing it often looks fare worse than it is. Some investigator (me) then has to dig up the interview to assure the client the violence was staged. This all goes into a report, and a few encrypted thumbdrives, to be filed away in case someone comes knocking in the future with wrongful dismissal or sexual harassment allegations.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      I can see how that'd be painful, though not the fault of the producers. Is Kink and Insex-level stuff the worst of legal/gray area pornography that you have to analyze, because that'd be surprising.
      - sandworm101 11y ago
        I don't know about worst. There is some pretty strange stuff out of japan, but it isn't as violent. There are a couple Russian websites that make Kink look like Disney in terms of violence, but they aren't a sexual with it. They are annoying because they don't comply with s2257 recordkeeping requirements. Most people would be shocked at how many overseas sites don't comply. That law only applies to "actual sexually explicit conduct" ... not all pornography and certainly not simple nudity.
        kristofferR 11y ago
        Why would people be shocked about that? I really hope most people aren't expecting US web sites to follow Russian media laws (and vice versa), that would be horribly undemocratic.
    - anigbrowl 11y ago
      The ones I have seen do interviews both before and after. I sampled 10 kink.com 'films' via the Pirate Bay and none of them had been edited (in terms of removing the intro interviews, I didn't wait for the downloads to complete). It may well be that some providers or the viewer themselves edits these out, and I appreciate that if you are not receptive to such material then perusing it for legal purposes must be distressing. But I hardly think it's fair to blame the media creator for what happens to their content afterwards, given that the various 'porn tube' sites seem to reduce everything to 5 or 10 minute clips of the most explicit bits. I certainly don't mean to make light of your concerns. I can appreciate that involuntarily dealing with this material is depressing at best and dehumanizing at worst, and have often made the case for censorship and government intrusion in regards to contraband material such as child porn on both legal and moral grounds. However, I am unable to understand your seeming animus towards an individual production company, notwithstanding its prolific output and the exploitative tone of its branding.
- anigbrowl 11y ago
  Hostile and Saw film franchises are direct outcomes of insex Absurd. I'm sure it was an influence, but let's not forget that the century kicked off with videos of things like Al Qaeda terrorists sawing off Daniel Pearl's head and horrific ethnic cleansing abuses in the Balkans. To think that these would not have been on Eli Roth's radar and ascribe it all to a porn site strains credulity. legally-dangerous aspects (plots/scripts) Do please explain your theory of what makes these legally dangerous. I am sure you have more legal knowledge than I, a law school dropout, but I'm interested enough censorship and first amendment issues that this claims seems highly questionable. Also, it's wrong unless it's based on some very recent news. I may as well admit I'm somewhat into SM myself and so I'm familiar with Kink.com's output, though I don't consume much porn. Last time I looked they were still doing things with plots, albeit the very rudimentary plots that amount to little more than verbal foreplay to set up the scene for the sexual activity. Now, I have no professional or personal relationship with them (although I have loose acquaintances with several people who have worked or performed for the firm) and don't find their offerings very erotic, but I fail to see why you would think it falls outside the bounds of first amendment protection, unless you are of the opinion that no sane person could consent to engage in sadomasochistic practices.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    The use of plots, of backstories, risk moving the footage from BDSM into the world of kidnappings and outright rape. Without getting too graphic, putting an actress in a cheerleader outfit is perfectly acceptable in porn, you can even throw in elements of BDSM. But give her the backstory of being kidnapped from her school and forced into sex ... that same BDSM imagery is now a graphic rape. The same goes for age. Putting an actress in a schoolgirl outfit is one thing, giving her lines about being the the 9th grade (and therefore underage) is very different. Kink knows it's best to avoid scripting.
    - anigbrowl 11y ago
      I appreciate your taking the time to reply. Obviously suggestions of being underage would be hugely problematic. While I don't see anything illegal about an adult performer pretending to be younger in a fictional context (but with the requisite 2257 filings in place) it would certainly border on commercial suicide due to adverse publicity, not to mention international problems (eg UK law is now considerably stricter on obscenity, banning the appearance of various acts as well as the performance thereof in real life). Now I can certainly see how a fictional kidnapping and rape could be similarly problematic, and the material I've seen steers away from such themes (but there's some self-selection bias there as that's not erotic to me anyway). But ISTM you'd have a very strong defense under the first amendment notwithstanding the graphic nature of the amterial. I mean, I can watch films like Nymphomaniac or The Night Porter on Netflix or DVD even though they are both graphic and include scenes of sexual coercion. They're not as graphic as a porn movie, obviously, but differences of degree haven't usually been enough to get an obscenity conviction in US courts in recent memory, eg US v. Stevens being found overbroad. You mentioned having written some articles and I'd certainly be interested in reading those even if they're primarily aimed at HR contexts. By chance I recently downloaded the Meese commission report to refresh my knowledge of the area so I would be interested in hearing more of your professional perspective (same name at gmail if you prefer). I eke out a living in indie film and have never worked in porn myself, but from a political and professional standpoint freedom of expression is a huge issue for me so I feel obliged to go to bat for other producers even where I find their output distasteful or straight-up trashy. Thanks again for engaging with me on a difficult topic.

sandworm101 11y ago

No doubt insex had a profound effect on culture. Frankly, I would say it is almost comparable to Playboy. The Hostile and Saw film franchises are direct outcomes of insex. What Kink has done is to take insex and add lawyers. They dropped some of the more legally-dangerous aspects (plots/scripts) and added comical "interviews" with all involved. But heaven help the attorneys who might have to defend Kink against obscenity charges. They are in totally unknown waters.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
I don't know if Insex was that influential that it influenced the modern "torture porn" films. Those were brewing for a long time since the exploitation films of the 70s onward. The interview was definitely an Insex plot device, as well. Though my point was the S/M subculture should not really be viewed negatively or marginalized. I somewhat received that sentiment from your parent post.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  Give insex time. Playboy has been around for generations. Insex did interviews during, Kink cut those. Kink does interviews afterwards, out of character, as evidence that the violence was consensual. These are not normally reproduced in filesharing communities. So when someone downloads one of these via filesharing it often looks fare worse than it is. Some investigator (me) then has to dig up the interview to assure the client the violence was staged. This all goes into a report, and a few encrypted thumbdrives, to be filed away in case someone comes knocking in the future with wrongful dismissal or sexual harassment allegations.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    I can see how that'd be painful, though not the fault of the producers. Is Kink and Insex-level stuff the worst of legal/gray area pornography that you have to analyze, because that'd be surprising.
    - sandworm101 11y ago
      I don't know about worst. There is some pretty strange stuff out of japan, but it isn't as violent. There are a couple Russian websites that make Kink look like Disney in terms of violence, but they aren't a sexual with it. They are annoying because they don't comply with s2257 recordkeeping requirements. Most people would be shocked at how many overseas sites don't comply. That law only applies to "actual sexually explicit conduct" ... not all pornography and certainly not simple nudity.
      - kristofferR 11y ago
        Why would people be shocked about that? I really hope most people aren't expecting US web sites to follow Russian media laws (and vice versa), that would be horribly undemocratic.
  - anigbrowl 11y ago
    The ones I have seen do interviews both before and after. I sampled 10 kink.com 'films' via the Pirate Bay and none of them had been edited (in terms of removing the intro interviews, I didn't wait for the downloads to complete). It may well be that some providers or the viewer themselves edits these out, and I appreciate that if you are not receptive to such material then perusing it for legal purposes must be distressing. But I hardly think it's fair to blame the media creator for what happens to their content afterwards, given that the various 'porn tube' sites seem to reduce everything to 5 or 10 minute clips of the most explicit bits. I certainly don't mean to make light of your concerns. I can appreciate that involuntarily dealing with this material is depressing at best and dehumanizing at worst, and have often made the case for censorship and government intrusion in regards to contraband material such as child porn on both legal and moral grounds. However, I am unable to understand your seeming animus towards an individual production company, notwithstanding its prolific output and the exploitative tone of its branding.
anigbrowl 11y ago
Hostile and Saw film franchises are direct outcomes of insex Absurd. I'm sure it was an influence, but let's not forget that the century kicked off with videos of things like Al Qaeda terrorists sawing off Daniel Pearl's head and horrific ethnic cleansing abuses in the Balkans. To think that these would not have been on Eli Roth's radar and ascribe it all to a porn site strains credulity. legally-dangerous aspects (plots/scripts) Do please explain your theory of what makes these legally dangerous. I am sure you have more legal knowledge than I, a law school dropout, but I'm interested enough censorship and first amendment issues that this claims seems highly questionable. Also, it's wrong unless it's based on some very recent news. I may as well admit I'm somewhat into SM myself and so I'm familiar with Kink.com's output, though I don't consume much porn. Last time I looked they were still doing things with plots, albeit the very rudimentary plots that amount to little more than verbal foreplay to set up the scene for the sexual activity. Now, I have no professional or personal relationship with them (although I have loose acquaintances with several people who have worked or performed for the firm) and don't find their offerings very erotic, but I fail to see why you would think it falls outside the bounds of first amendment protection, unless you are of the opinion that no sane person could consent to engage in sadomasochistic practices.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  The use of plots, of backstories, risk moving the footage from BDSM into the world of kidnappings and outright rape. Without getting too graphic, putting an actress in a cheerleader outfit is perfectly acceptable in porn, you can even throw in elements of BDSM. But give her the backstory of being kidnapped from her school and forced into sex ... that same BDSM imagery is now a graphic rape. The same goes for age. Putting an actress in a schoolgirl outfit is one thing, giving her lines about being the the 9th grade (and therefore underage) is very different. Kink knows it's best to avoid scripting.
  - anigbrowl 11y ago
    I appreciate your taking the time to reply. Obviously suggestions of being underage would be hugely problematic. While I don't see anything illegal about an adult performer pretending to be younger in a fictional context (but with the requisite 2257 filings in place) it would certainly border on commercial suicide due to adverse publicity, not to mention international problems (eg UK law is now considerably stricter on obscenity, banning the appearance of various acts as well as the performance thereof in real life). Now I can certainly see how a fictional kidnapping and rape could be similarly problematic, and the material I've seen steers away from such themes (but there's some self-selection bias there as that's not erotic to me anyway). But ISTM you'd have a very strong defense under the first amendment notwithstanding the graphic nature of the amterial. I mean, I can watch films like Nymphomaniac or The Night Porter on Netflix or DVD even though they are both graphic and include scenes of sexual coercion. They're not as graphic as a porn movie, obviously, but differences of degree haven't usually been enough to get an obscenity conviction in US courts in recent memory, eg US v. Stevens being found overbroad. You mentioned having written some articles and I'd certainly be interested in reading those even if they're primarily aimed at HR contexts. By chance I recently downloaded the Meese commission report to refresh my knowledge of the area so I would be interested in hearing more of your professional perspective (same name at gmail if you prefer). I eke out a living in indie film and have never worked in porn myself, but from a political and professional standpoint freedom of expression is a huge issue for me so I feel obliged to go to bat for other producers even where I find their output distasteful or straight-up trashy. Thanks again for engaging with me on a difficult topic.