5 ms·

Unfortunately, it appears that many people, both end users, power users and programmers alike, have made up their minds and want their computers to be appliance

Unfortunately, it appears that many people, both end users, power users and programmers alike, have made up their minds and want their computers to be appliances instead of tools. In fact, strict regimentation, curation and immutable defaults are in wide demand by consumers of all demographics. Having to manually tune something is considered ever more blasphemous these days. I think we will end up losing a lot in this process, not least of which the ensuing moral crisis as system software research becomes increasingly dead in favor of having our machines just be whatever black box the vendor has crafted, indeed our very mental model of a computing environment being whatever is presented to us obliquely. And all of this happening while many beat their chests demanding that programming be made a compulsory subject in public schools. What a sickening irony.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
> And all of this happening while many beat their chests demanding that programming be made a compulsory subject in public schools. What a sickening irony. Indeed. Also note how the typical curriculum offered by proponents is geared towards teaching people to create things that will be ad-supported or will be providing ads. I wish to know if there's a way to fight back somehow. Maybe not to reverse the trend, but to separate ourselves from it? Let the masses have their appliances if they really like them, but let us keep our tools. The thing I fear is professionalization of programming, when we become a legitimate engineering discipline and thus will have to work for an expensive license to legally use a turing-complete language, and compilers is something you can go to jail for if they see you trying to run it without credentials.
- nicklaf 11y ago
  and compilers is something you can go to jail for if they see you trying to run it without credentials. I'm a little skeptical this will happen with software, but it is well underway in the case of hardware[1]. [1] https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Save_WiFi https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Save_WiFi
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Software is incredibly dangerous. All the malware that spreads exists because a) you have a general-purpose computer to run it on, and b) they have a general-purpose language to write it in. By restricting a) and b) we're ensuring your safety, as well as the safety of our critical infrastructure, baking, etc. The arguments aren't actually that bad (of course we know that currently the strongest side supporting them is media companies trying to kill general-purpose computing to make unbreakable DRMs, but in principle they sort of have a point...) - it's the cost that is too high.
    - chinpokomon 11y ago
      And all executable code must be signed by the register that licensed you, so the code that runs can be audited back to its creator. However, the Software Engineers Union will offer the developer some legal protection, as well as negotiating the trade wages by scale.
    - WildUtah 11y ago
      the safety of our critical infrastructure, baking Well, the baking industry is certainly more productive of human comfort and happiness than certain other industries demanding protection from the laws the rest of us live by -- such as finance.
  - mindcrime 11y ago
    You should submit that link as a top level story!
    - nicklaf 11y ago
      Well, there have been similar submissions every few weeks, and there was a pretty long discussion about it 7 weeks ago [1], so it'd probably be a dupe. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10139679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10139679
- WildUtah 11y ago
  Senator Fritz Hollings (D-Disney) in 2001 introduced the SSSCA, the bill to take away all the pansy freedom of speech provisions of the DMCA and really lock down computers for the legitimate big business that should control programming. It was Hollings's 35th year as the junior senator from South Carolina and -- as chairman of the Commerce Committee -- he had really decided to crack down. The SSSCA as introduced would have prohibited, with criminal penalties, the possession without a license of a compiler capable of producing programs that could process, copy, or decrypt data in media files. Every Turing-complete programming language in the country would have required a special federal license to use. Finally, only licensed, bonded, qualified, and tracked professionals taking responsibility for their actions could violate our precious copyrights. But Hollings wasn't as spry as his senior colleague from South Carolina and retired before he could finish his final good work for the corporations that made him. Even that business so famously unashamed that its own mascot is a rodent would have to settle for waiting a little longer to achieve its aims.
  - kwhitefoot 11y ago
    > that business so famously unashamed that its own mascot is a rodent That's a line I'll remember!
    - WildUtah 11y ago
      It's an old Carl Hiaasen line.

TeMPOraL 11y ago

> And all of this happening while many beat their chests demanding that programming be made a compulsory subject in public schools. What a sickening irony. Indeed. Also note how the typical curriculum offered by proponents is geared towards teaching people to create things that will be ad-supported or will be providing ads. I wish to know if there's a way to fight back somehow. Maybe not to reverse the trend, but to separate ourselves from it? Let the masses have their appliances if they really like them, but let us keep our tools. The thing I fear is professionalization of programming, when we become a legitimate engineering discipline and thus will have to work for an expensive license to legally use a turing-complete language, and compilers is something you can go to jail for if they see you trying to run it without credentials.

nicklaf 11y ago
and compilers is something you can go to jail for if they see you trying to run it without credentials. I'm a little skeptical this will happen with software, but it is well underway in the case of hardware[1]. [1] https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Save_WiFi https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Save_WiFi
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Software is incredibly dangerous. All the malware that spreads exists because a) you have a general-purpose computer to run it on, and b) they have a general-purpose language to write it in. By restricting a) and b) we're ensuring your safety, as well as the safety of our critical infrastructure, baking, etc. The arguments aren't actually that bad (of course we know that currently the strongest side supporting them is media companies trying to kill general-purpose computing to make unbreakable DRMs, but in principle they sort of have a point...) - it's the cost that is too high.
  - chinpokomon 11y ago
    And all executable code must be signed by the register that licensed you, so the code that runs can be audited back to its creator. However, the Software Engineers Union will offer the developer some legal protection, as well as negotiating the trade wages by scale.
  - WildUtah 11y ago
    the safety of our critical infrastructure, baking Well, the baking industry is certainly more productive of human comfort and happiness than certain other industries demanding protection from the laws the rest of us live by -- such as finance.
- mindcrime 11y ago
  You should submit that link as a top level story!
  - nicklaf 11y ago
    Well, there have been similar submissions every few weeks, and there was a pretty long discussion about it 7 weeks ago [1], so it'd probably be a dupe. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10139679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10139679
WildUtah 11y ago
Senator Fritz Hollings (D-Disney) in 2001 introduced the SSSCA, the bill to take away all the pansy freedom of speech provisions of the DMCA and really lock down computers for the legitimate big business that should control programming. It was Hollings's 35th year as the junior senator from South Carolina and -- as chairman of the Commerce Committee -- he had really decided to crack down. The SSSCA as introduced would have prohibited, with criminal penalties, the possession without a license of a compiler capable of producing programs that could process, copy, or decrypt data in media files. Every Turing-complete programming language in the country would have required a special federal license to use. Finally, only licensed, bonded, qualified, and tracked professionals taking responsibility for their actions could violate our precious copyrights. But Hollings wasn't as spry as his senior colleague from South Carolina and retired before he could finish his final good work for the corporations that made him. Even that business so famously unashamed that its own mascot is a rodent would have to settle for waiting a little longer to achieve its aims.
- kwhitefoot 11y ago
  > that business so famously unashamed that its own mascot is a rodent That's a line I'll remember!
  - WildUtah 11y ago
    It's an old Carl Hiaasen line.