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I have observed a general frustration that good developers (who are in high demand) still need to do well in an interview setting. Frustrating as it may be, I t

by goo 11y ago

I have observed a general frustration that good developers (who are in high demand) still need to do well in an interview setting. Frustrating as it may be, I think that embracing the reality is the best path forward. A good developer would be smart to realize that this is a part of the project of finding a great new job, and would apply themselves fully to the subtask of preparing for and succeeding at an interview. I think that, in the same way it is a necessary frustration to make sure the site performs well on IE8, a good developer recognizes the task as essential, and does what is necessary despite the perceived lack of significance. Of course there is a limit to this lack of significance -- I am not advocating that people become professional interview-ees. But embracing the frustrations of a profession can give you a huge edge over those who don't. If I were to be seeking employment right now, my first step would absolutely be to sign up for resources like this one, and dedicate a couple hours a day to honing my interview skills. It would be fun, and would develop a skill that opens a lot of doors.

sanderjd 11y ago
I completely agree with you in that this is currently a weakness in the system, which can be exploited by those savvy enough to realize that they can gain a pretty large advantage simply by putting in a relatively small amount of dedicated work. Having said that, if (as many of us believe) these sorts of interviews aren't a very good way to correlate candidates with desired job skills, then the situation is bad for companies, and for the efficiency of the industry as a whole, despite being a good thing for that set of people who are willing to gain an advantage through preparation. There are probably more useful things than preparing for interviews that people could be doing for that couple hours a day.
PopeOfNope 11y ago
I have observed a general frustration that good developers (who are in high demand) still need to do well in an interview setting. I'm not sure it's frustrating so much as it is humiliating. Programmers (especially good ones) have egos that are somewhere between healthy and oversized. Interviewers assume you know nothing and make you qualify yourself at each and every interview, as if you were a fresh college graduate who hadn't already made his bones[0] at a dozen other jobs[1]. A good developer would be smart to realize that this is a part of the project of finding a great new job, and would apply themselves fully to the subtask of preparing for and succeeding at an interview. Sadly enough, I couldn't agree more. Complaining on the internet is not a sufficient strategy for changing the face of tech hiring, so if you want to work, you have to deal with things as they are. Then again, the best way to find new jobs is through aggressive networking, not being able to reverse a binary tree on a whiteboard. So a good developer should probably focus on that instead. [0]: yes, that's a very entitled attitude. On the other hand, if we had gone into an apprenticed trade, like woodworking or plumbing, it's expected that you already know your job by the time you hang your own shingle. It's a sad day when plumbers get more respect than programmers. [1]: Just to nip this one in the bud: Yes, people lie on resumes. A short conversation about their work history where you ask for specifics should be enough to verify whether they actually did what they said they did. If they're good enough to bullshit their way through an interview, they're good enough to bullshit their way through a whiteboard programming session. If, for some bizarre reason you make a bad hire despite all the other filters you have set up, fire them and chalk it up to a mistake. If you do it over and over and over, re-evaluate how you do interviews.
- sokoloff 11y ago
  > If they're good enough to bullshit their way through an interview, they're good enough to bullshit their way through a whiteboard programming session. That's not been my experience. I've met a fair number of ace bullshitters who fell to pieces when it came time to write any code. I'm not talking missing a semi-colon here or there; I'm talking closer to "an observer who walked in afterwards might not be able to tell what problem I asked them to code."
- malnourish 11y ago
  I don't really see how it's a sad day when plumbers get more respect than programmers. Both professions provide skilled, valuable services.
obrero 11y ago
> Frustrating as it may be, I think that embracing the reality is the best path forward. They want you to lick their boots "embrace the reality - its the best path forward!" They want you to spread your asscheeks open for them "embrace the reality, its the best path forward!" Are you a shill for these companies, or just a resigned loser encouraging other people to be resigned losers? When some company asks something unreasonable (or even "reasonable", to someone like this especially) I tell them to fuck off. Or you can get down on your knees and hop like a trained poodle like this fellow is telling you to.
- dang 11y ago
  This comment breaks the HN guidelines. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.
lewisl9029 11y ago
Sorry, but I have better things to do with my time than to waste it on employers who like to grill candidates on their knowledge of obscure algorithm & data structures and their ability to code under pressure with someone breathing down their neck at all times, when these skills have absolutely nothing to do with the jobs they're hiring for. I also consider having the traditional interview process a huge red flag, since it's a good indicator that once hired, you may have to work with the kinds of employees that this kind of interview process tends to self-select for (i.e. extrovert bro-grammers who are experts at gaming the interview process but who won't necessarily know how to build a compelling, maintainable product).

by goo 11y ago

sanderjd 11y ago

I completely agree with you in that this is currently a weakness in the system, which can be exploited by those savvy enough to realize that they can gain a pretty large advantage simply by putting in a relatively small amount of dedicated work. Having said that, if (as many of us believe) these sorts of interviews aren't a very good way to correlate candidates with desired job skills, then the situation is bad for companies, and for the efficiency of the industry as a whole, despite being a good thing for that set of people who are willing to gain an advantage through preparation. There are probably more useful things than preparing for interviews that people could be doing for that couple hours a day.

PopeOfNope 11y ago

I have observed a general frustration that good developers (who are in high demand) still need to do well in an interview setting. I'm not sure it's frustrating so much as it is humiliating. Programmers (especially good ones) have egos that are somewhere between healthy and oversized. Interviewers assume you know nothing and make you qualify yourself at each and every interview, as if you were a fresh college graduate who hadn't already made his bones[0] at a dozen other jobs[1]. A good developer would be smart to realize that this is a part of the project of finding a great new job, and would apply themselves fully to the subtask of preparing for and succeeding at an interview. Sadly enough, I couldn't agree more. Complaining on the internet is not a sufficient strategy for changing the face of tech hiring, so if you want to work, you have to deal with things as they are. Then again, the best way to find new jobs is through aggressive networking, not being able to reverse a binary tree on a whiteboard. So a good developer should probably focus on that instead. [0]: yes, that's a very entitled attitude. On the other hand, if we had gone into an apprenticed trade, like woodworking or plumbing, it's expected that you already know your job by the time you hang your own shingle. It's a sad day when plumbers get more respect than programmers. [1]: Just to nip this one in the bud: Yes, people lie on resumes. A short conversation about their work history where you ask for specifics should be enough to verify whether they actually did what they said they did. If they're good enough to bullshit their way through an interview, they're good enough to bullshit their way through a whiteboard programming session. If, for some bizarre reason you make a bad hire despite all the other filters you have set up, fire them and chalk it up to a mistake. If you do it over and over and over, re-evaluate how you do interviews.

sokoloff 11y ago
> If they're good enough to bullshit their way through an interview, they're good enough to bullshit their way through a whiteboard programming session. That's not been my experience. I've met a fair number of ace bullshitters who fell to pieces when it came time to write any code. I'm not talking missing a semi-colon here or there; I'm talking closer to "an observer who walked in afterwards might not be able to tell what problem I asked them to code."
malnourish 11y ago
I don't really see how it's a sad day when plumbers get more respect than programmers. Both professions provide skilled, valuable services.

obrero 11y ago

> Frustrating as it may be, I think that embracing the reality is the best path forward. They want you to lick their boots "embrace the reality - its the best path forward!" They want you to spread your asscheeks open for them "embrace the reality, its the best path forward!" Are you a shill for these companies, or just a resigned loser encouraging other people to be resigned losers? When some company asks something unreasonable (or even "reasonable", to someone like this especially) I tell them to fuck off. Or you can get down on your knees and hop like a trained poodle like this fellow is telling you to.

dang 11y ago
This comment breaks the HN guidelines. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

lewisl9029 11y ago

Sorry, but I have better things to do with my time than to waste it on employers who like to grill candidates on their knowledge of obscure algorithm & data structures and their ability to code under pressure with someone breathing down their neck at all times, when these skills have absolutely nothing to do with the jobs they're hiring for. I also consider having the traditional interview process a huge red flag, since it's a good indicator that once hired, you may have to work with the kinds of employees that this kind of interview process tends to self-select for (i.e. extrovert bro-grammers who are experts at gaming the interview process but who won't necessarily know how to build a compelling, maintainable product).