13 ms·

No. War is categorically inhumane. There are no gray areas. You can add layers of abstraction on top of the violence – much like Tesla owners are abstracted aw

No. War is categorically inhumane. There are no gray areas. You can add layers of abstraction on top of the violence – much like Tesla owners are abstracted away from the pollution that powers their vehicles – but at the end of the day, someone is on the receiving end of a weapon designed to kill, and you can't sugar-coat that.

walshemj 11y ago
As opposed to area bombing ww2 style - modern war takes far more care to avoid collateral damage.
- justinator 11y ago
  Interesting idea, but: * drones and missile guidance systems are not infallible * Soldiers join the army against their will * Terrorism is a thing. A big thing. Used by most countries.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    "modern war takes far more care to avoid collateral damage" != "modern war causes no collateral damage" != "modern war is humane". You therefore are not actually rebutting the GP's point.
  - tsotha 11y ago
    There's a big difference between dropping a smart bomb on a specific target and flattening an entire city in the hopes of getting that target. Guided weapons certainly aren't perfect, but they're miles better than the alternative.
- ihsw 11y ago
  You're kidding, right? The operation in the Iraq War (2003) was a shit show -- we steamrolled Iraq's entire public infrastructure, funneled untold millions/billions into Islamist and Western militias, and killed/wounded tens of thousands of Americans, Iraqis, or otherwise. In Yemen and Afghanistan we send drones over with abandon, not taking care to avoid civilians or that we're hitting the right target. And after all that, hundreds of billions of dollars are thrown away. Not only is collateral damage there but it's here too -- we are wasting money on dubious programs that have no measurable indicator of success and no end in sight. War is every bit as ugly as it was a century ago.
  - sliverstorm 11y ago
    They weren't perfect, but were they close to the firebombing of tokyo?
  - walshemj 11y ago
    No I am not - you can't compare Iraq to fire bombing Dresden or Tokyo with a single air raid killing 50k plus in a single night. Let alone what happened on the ground in ww2 read Bevors Stalingrad or Berlin. IRAQ was a CF but its relatively more humane than ww2
  - afarrell 11y ago
    Okay, you've demonstrated that modern war is horrific and especially really expensive. That doesn't actually prove your point since you haven't made a comparison.
  - reitanqild 11y ago
    War is every bit as ugly as it was a century ago. Disagree, as far as I understand at least Americans and western Europeans don't systematically rape civilians. Firebombing civilian areas isn't as acceptable as it used to be etc etc. Really cruel things still does happen but it could have been a whole lot worse. I'm of the opinion that as an unarmed civilian I'd much rather meet an angry, armed soldier than about any other equally angry equally armed person. Then again, my limited training and lack of combat experience might have rendered me a bit naive. And: IIRC drone operators, at least many of them, aren't soldiers which has been pointed out as a problem even by US military, again IIRC.
chadzawistowski 11y ago
Re: electric vehicles drawing power from a dirty grid The dirtiness of the US power grid varies quite a bit depending on where you live. For example, Tesla owners in New York have emissions equivalent to a 112 MPG gasoline vehicle [0]. The dirtiest portion of the grid is Colorado, where you would only get 34 MPG equivalent. While not as good, this is still above average. http://i.imgur.com/nTBCJ8w.jpg http://i.imgur.com/nTBCJ8w.jpg (via Wait But Why)
- sliverstorm 11y ago
  Why is Colorado so bad? A lossy electrical grid? Less solar/nuclear/wind/hydro? What metric is that really showing? Here[0] Colorado doesn't top any of the charts. [0]: http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/state/analysis/ http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/state/analysis/
  - chadzawistowski 11y ago
    Colorado is part of the RMPA (Rocky Mountain Power Area). It might not top the charts for absolute emissions. A better metric to search for would be emissions per megawatt hour (lb/MWh). In 2009, RMPA had the highest carbon emissions per megawatt hour out of the entire US, at 1,824.51 lb/MWh [0]. It also emits nitrous oxide at a high rate, though not the highest in the country. [0] http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-02/documents/egrid2012v1_0_year09_summarytables.pdf http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-02/documents...
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  One interesting angle on this is that the grid is decarbonizing (e.g. just a switch from coal to gas can have a big impact). It seems that currently the two things (modern efficient ICE versus EV) are roughly comparable, but which is improving faster and predicted to continue improving in the future? Many of the proper scientific studies on this use years old grid data since newer info takes a while to collate and get published, so possibly EVs have already pulled ahead.
  - 11y ago
qyv 11y ago
Less inhumane != humane As for grey areas, is it more humane to kill 1 to prevent them from killing 10? Or 2? Or 10,000,000? Two things that should not be spoken of categorically are war and humane/inhumane, they are routinely defined by their grey areas.

walshemj 11y ago

As opposed to area bombing ww2 style - modern war takes far more care to avoid collateral damage.

justinator 11y ago
Interesting idea, but: * drones and missile guidance systems are not infallible * Soldiers join the army against their will * Terrorism is a thing. A big thing. Used by most countries.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  "modern war takes far more care to avoid collateral damage" != "modern war causes no collateral damage" != "modern war is humane". You therefore are not actually rebutting the GP's point.
- tsotha 11y ago
  There's a big difference between dropping a smart bomb on a specific target and flattening an entire city in the hopes of getting that target. Guided weapons certainly aren't perfect, but they're miles better than the alternative.
ihsw 11y ago
You're kidding, right? The operation in the Iraq War (2003) was a shit show -- we steamrolled Iraq's entire public infrastructure, funneled untold millions/billions into Islamist and Western militias, and killed/wounded tens of thousands of Americans, Iraqis, or otherwise. In Yemen and Afghanistan we send drones over with abandon, not taking care to avoid civilians or that we're hitting the right target. And after all that, hundreds of billions of dollars are thrown away. Not only is collateral damage there but it's here too -- we are wasting money on dubious programs that have no measurable indicator of success and no end in sight. War is every bit as ugly as it was a century ago.
- sliverstorm 11y ago
  They weren't perfect, but were they close to the firebombing of tokyo?
- walshemj 11y ago
  No I am not - you can't compare Iraq to fire bombing Dresden or Tokyo with a single air raid killing 50k plus in a single night. Let alone what happened on the ground in ww2 read Bevors Stalingrad or Berlin. IRAQ was a CF but its relatively more humane than ww2
- afarrell 11y ago
  Okay, you've demonstrated that modern war is horrific and especially really expensive. That doesn't actually prove your point since you haven't made a comparison.
- reitanqild 11y ago
  War is every bit as ugly as it was a century ago. Disagree, as far as I understand at least Americans and western Europeans don't systematically rape civilians. Firebombing civilian areas isn't as acceptable as it used to be etc etc. Really cruel things still does happen but it could have been a whole lot worse. I'm of the opinion that as an unarmed civilian I'd much rather meet an angry, armed soldier than about any other equally angry equally armed person. Then again, my limited training and lack of combat experience might have rendered me a bit naive. And: IIRC drone operators, at least many of them, aren't soldiers which has been pointed out as a problem even by US military, again IIRC.

chadzawistowski 11y ago

Re: electric vehicles drawing power from a dirty grid The dirtiness of the US power grid varies quite a bit depending on where you live. For example, Tesla owners in New York have emissions equivalent to a 112 MPG gasoline vehicle [0]. The dirtiest portion of the grid is Colorado, where you would only get 34 MPG equivalent. While not as good, this is still above average. http://i.imgur.com/nTBCJ8w.jpg http://i.imgur.com/nTBCJ8w.jpg (via Wait But Why)

sliverstorm 11y ago
Why is Colorado so bad? A lossy electrical grid? Less solar/nuclear/wind/hydro? What metric is that really showing? Here[0] Colorado doesn't top any of the charts. [0]: http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/state/analysis/ http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/state/analysis/
- chadzawistowski 11y ago
  Colorado is part of the RMPA (Rocky Mountain Power Area). It might not top the charts for absolute emissions. A better metric to search for would be emissions per megawatt hour (lb/MWh). In 2009, RMPA had the highest carbon emissions per megawatt hour out of the entire US, at 1,824.51 lb/MWh [0]. It also emits nitrous oxide at a high rate, though not the highest in the country. [0] http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-02/documents/egrid2012v1_0_year09_summarytables.pdf http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-02/documents...
ZeroGravitas 11y ago
One interesting angle on this is that the grid is decarbonizing (e.g. just a switch from coal to gas can have a big impact). It seems that currently the two things (modern efficient ICE versus EV) are roughly comparable, but which is improving faster and predicted to continue improving in the future? Many of the proper scientific studies on this use years old grid data since newer info takes a while to collate and get published, so possibly EVs have already pulled ahead.
- 11y ago

qyv 11y ago

Less inhumane != humane As for grey areas, is it more humane to kill 1 to prevent them from killing 10? Or 2? Or 10,000,000? Two things that should not be spoken of categorically are war and humane/inhumane, they are routinely defined by their grey areas.