3 ms·

rms has always been of the opinion that the quality of software is less important then the freedom of software. He has admitted that open source software _may_

rms has always been of the opinion that the quality of software is less important then the freedom of software. He has admitted that open source software _may_ lead to better quality, but it doesn't matter. His ideal is freedom for the users of the software.

axod 17y ago
>> "His ideal is freedom for the users of the software." sure. But I think 99.9% of people just don't care if they're "free" by his definition of free. If I buy a laptop, I consider myself free, even though I don't have the schematics, the moulds used to make the plastic, the development details etc. But what if the laptop co goes out of business, and my laptop case gets a chip! How will I make a replacement case if I don't have access to the moulding details etc! Well, I don't really care that much. It's just an odd thing to strive for IMHO. I think one of the problems with open source is that it assumes anyone can just 'take over' some source code and fix bugs etc. The reality however is that it's not that simple. Just like giving me plastic moulds is nice in theory, but pretty useless in practice.
- doki_pen 17y ago
  Often times, when I must use proprietary software in the course of my employment, I run into some issue with the software that is incredibly annoying. I'm sure there are many other users who feel the same was as I do about a particular piece of proprietary software. I feel frustrated that I can't fix what is seemingly a simple issue, or even see why it's happening because it is proprietary. When I use copyleft software, this rarely happens. I can only assume it's because some other user has experienced the same annoyance and fixed it already. But when I do run into something that's broken, I am able to look at the source, make a patch, and submitted it back upstream. This is usually with software that has a smaller user base. I value this freedom and am glad that RMS and others have worked so hard to spread it.
  - axod 17y ago
    I don't think it correlates at all. The only important thing here is having people behind a project that care, respond to any queries, and are actively developing/fixing/maintaining. Good software isn't good because it's open or closed source. It's good because people are sitting behind it and care about it. That's personally all I care about - that the people 'behind' the software care, and will fix any issues that need fixing.
    - loup-vaillant 17y ago
      What guarantees the existence of such people, if not the freedom of the software ? The only moment a free software project can die is by having (almost) no user who cares any more. Proprietary software is often not as long lived. EDIT: Clarification (apparently, the above is cryptic enough to warrant a downmod): in any software project, the founders of the project can quit, go broke, die, or just be much less active. And no one can guarantee that it won't happen. If the software is GPL, you have the guarantee that when that happens, some more developers can jump in and take the lead. If no one do so that means only one thing: no one cares enough (including users, which could hire someone). Good riddance. Example: CVS is dying because everyone is willing to switch to SVN. If the software is proprietary, that possibility may be denied by the original founders. Which means a proprietary software can die while people still care. Example: old versions of Windows or Word, or games on old platforms. Which leads to the obvious question: for any proprietary software, can you guarantee that it won't die before no one cares? I think not.
      - axod 17y ago
        >> "What guarantees the existence of such people, if not the freedom of the software ?" Usually some aspect of monetization. For instance, plentyoffish.com is free, closed source, but has someone behind it who cares, because it's his livelihood.
        loup-vaillant 17y ago
        But, he can be hit by a bus, or get hired. (Details in my post above.)
- btilly 17y ago
  The reason why the laptop example works like you say is that laptops are commodities for you. It isn't that hard to exchange laptops and it isn't that big a deal once you do. The problem with software is that once it is integrated into your software ecosystem you often wind up locked in. If that software stops being able to work for you (for instance your license stops working and you can't purchase another one), then you frequently have a very difficult transition ahead since there is no drop in replacement available. RMS sees this, knows that users often don't realize their potential future pain until they are committed to it, and concludes that non-free software is evil. By contrast an economist sees this, assumes that the market will be rational, and writes a book like Information Rules explaining how one should best act given the economic facts. My view is that most people who really care about software have been around the block enough times to have experienced the economic fact and in practice act more like economic theory says you should act. Of course this provides an economic argument for free software, which has of course lead to the open source set of arguments. YMMV. And on this topic it tends to vary widely.
anonjon 17y ago
Right, I think the point is that quality and freedom are not correlated. Regardless of the code quality, the user needs to have the ability to fix bugs, write extensions, and distribute them whether or not the original author is around or cares about the software anymore. So it kind of hearkens back to the day when computer users were also competent programmers. I think the modern day analogy to proprietary software would be someone sending you a locked excel sheet with a license that says 'you may not change, copy or distribute this excel sheet,' and then having glaring error in the spreadsheet. You see the error and want to fix it but are obligated not to because of some silly rules. Instead you have to email the idiot who wrote the broken excel sheet, and have him fix it. (And wait for him to reply, which he may or may not do). This resonates with me because I hate wasting my time on extra steps. I should be able to email the guy 'Hey, i fixed a bug, look at this' and be done with it. Granted, the majority of computer users now are not of this personality type, and even if they are, wouldn't have the expertise or experience. For FSF to really win, we would at least need a much higher level of computer education in the general population. (IMO 90% of people are functionally illiterate, with regard to computing).

axod 17y ago

>> "His ideal is freedom for the users of the software." sure. But I think 99.9% of people just don't care if they're "free" by his definition of free. If I buy a laptop, I consider myself free, even though I don't have the schematics, the moulds used to make the plastic, the development details etc. But what if the laptop co goes out of business, and my laptop case gets a chip! How will I make a replacement case if I don't have access to the moulding details etc! Well, I don't really care that much. It's just an odd thing to strive for IMHO. I think one of the problems with open source is that it assumes anyone can just 'take over' some source code and fix bugs etc. The reality however is that it's not that simple. Just like giving me plastic moulds is nice in theory, but pretty useless in practice.

doki_pen 17y ago
Often times, when I must use proprietary software in the course of my employment, I run into some issue with the software that is incredibly annoying. I'm sure there are many other users who feel the same was as I do about a particular piece of proprietary software. I feel frustrated that I can't fix what is seemingly a simple issue, or even see why it's happening because it is proprietary. When I use copyleft software, this rarely happens. I can only assume it's because some other user has experienced the same annoyance and fixed it already. But when I do run into something that's broken, I am able to look at the source, make a patch, and submitted it back upstream. This is usually with software that has a smaller user base. I value this freedom and am glad that RMS and others have worked so hard to spread it.
- axod 17y ago
  I don't think it correlates at all. The only important thing here is having people behind a project that care, respond to any queries, and are actively developing/fixing/maintaining. Good software isn't good because it's open or closed source. It's good because people are sitting behind it and care about it. That's personally all I care about - that the people 'behind' the software care, and will fix any issues that need fixing.
  - loup-vaillant 17y ago
    What guarantees the existence of such people, if not the freedom of the software ? The only moment a free software project can die is by having (almost) no user who cares any more. Proprietary software is often not as long lived. EDIT: Clarification (apparently, the above is cryptic enough to warrant a downmod): in any software project, the founders of the project can quit, go broke, die, or just be much less active. And no one can guarantee that it won't happen. If the software is GPL, you have the guarantee that when that happens, some more developers can jump in and take the lead. If no one do so that means only one thing: no one cares enough (including users, which could hire someone). Good riddance. Example: CVS is dying because everyone is willing to switch to SVN. If the software is proprietary, that possibility may be denied by the original founders. Which means a proprietary software can die while people still care. Example: old versions of Windows or Word, or games on old platforms. Which leads to the obvious question: for any proprietary software, can you guarantee that it won't die before no one cares? I think not.
    - axod 17y ago
      >> "What guarantees the existence of such people, if not the freedom of the software ?" Usually some aspect of monetization. For instance, plentyoffish.com is free, closed source, but has someone behind it who cares, because it's his livelihood.
      - loup-vaillant 17y ago
        But, he can be hit by a bus, or get hired. (Details in my post above.)
btilly 17y ago
The reason why the laptop example works like you say is that laptops are commodities for you. It isn't that hard to exchange laptops and it isn't that big a deal once you do. The problem with software is that once it is integrated into your software ecosystem you often wind up locked in. If that software stops being able to work for you (for instance your license stops working and you can't purchase another one), then you frequently have a very difficult transition ahead since there is no drop in replacement available. RMS sees this, knows that users often don't realize their potential future pain until they are committed to it, and concludes that non-free software is evil. By contrast an economist sees this, assumes that the market will be rational, and writes a book like Information Rules explaining how one should best act given the economic facts. My view is that most people who really care about software have been around the block enough times to have experienced the economic fact and in practice act more like economic theory says you should act. Of course this provides an economic argument for free software, which has of course lead to the open source set of arguments. YMMV. And on this topic it tends to vary widely.

anonjon 17y ago

Right, I think the point is that quality and freedom are not correlated. Regardless of the code quality, the user needs to have the ability to fix bugs, write extensions, and distribute them whether or not the original author is around or cares about the software anymore. So it kind of hearkens back to the day when computer users were also competent programmers. I think the modern day analogy to proprietary software would be someone sending you a locked excel sheet with a license that says 'you may not change, copy or distribute this excel sheet,' and then having glaring error in the spreadsheet. You see the error and want to fix it but are obligated not to because of some silly rules. Instead you have to email the idiot who wrote the broken excel sheet, and have him fix it. (And wait for him to reply, which he may or may not do). This resonates with me because I hate wasting my time on extra steps. I should be able to email the guy 'Hey, i fixed a bug, look at this' and be done with it. Granted, the majority of computer users now are not of this personality type, and even if they are, wouldn't have the expertise or experience. For FSF to really win, we would at least need a much higher level of computer education in the general population. (IMO 90% of people are functionally illiterate, with regard to computing).