4 ms·

Wait, What? There is a law against giving racist real estate advice? That, isn't actually true, is it? You are joking? Is that actually true?!

by drdeca 11y ago

kruipen 11y ago
Relax. Even if there is such a law it certainly is not illegal in USA to "advocate (...) opinions (...) in public". See what happened last time someone thought advocating opinions was illegal [1]... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC
- oh_sigh 11y ago
  The original poster is talking specifically about real estate professionals.
nsxwolf 11y ago
I know that my wife isn't allowed to answer the question "Are the schools good here?" with anything other than "This home is in school district 123", or "you'll have to do your own research". It's considered "steering". (Because Good Schools is considered a dog whistle for "white neighborhood")
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  The policies enforced by particular offices (often based on an excess of caution, and often based on mythology of law rather than actual legal advice) are a different thing than the law. It absolutely is not illegal to provide answers to that question more directly when selling real estate (and, in fact, most agents I've dealt with or encountered will, though rather than providing their opinion they will rather directly provide statistical data which answers that question -- and others -- with comparative information; the package I got from the agent for the last house I considered buying included not only school performance information for the neighborhood compared to other areas in the region, but also income information, family size information, and other demographics.) Providing a bare and unsupported simple subjective "good" or "bad" answer is probably more legally dangerous than providing factual information, not because "good schools" is dog whistle for "white neighborhood" (in fact, its neither illegal nor uncommon to provide factual information which fairly directly gives information about ethnic/racial demographics), but because someone else might convince a court that your description was slanted because you were trying to steer the buyer based on your perception of their racial fit, rather than trying to provide them factual information about the existing character of the neighborhood which might be relevant to their decision.
  - protomyth 11y ago
    "It absolutely is not illegal to provide answers to that question more directly when selling real estate" As applied in the US (not the original article, but I suspect where nsxwolf is talking about), the Federal Fair Housing Act (Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968) would prohibit certain questions from being answered. http://www.jmls.edu/clinics/fairhousing/pdf/fair-housing-primer.pdf http://www.jmls.edu/clinics/fairhousing/pdf/fair-housing-pri...
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > As applied in the US (not the original article, but I suspect where nsxwolf is talking about), the Federal Fair Housing Act (Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968) would prohibit certain questions from being answered. I can't find anything in your source to support that claim that answering questions would be prohibited, in fact, it seems to directly contradict the claim about merely providing an opinion on school quality being prohibited as steering (p. 12, "Racial steering is where a real estate agent steers white persons to one community or area and minorities to another community or area. [...] The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has held the proof of a discriminatory motive is required in a steering case.")
      - protomyth 11y ago
        It comes under the racial steering section
        dragonwriter 11y ago
        > It comes under the racial steering section The racial steering section does not support the claim that answering questions is prohibited (in fact, it specifically as I quoted identifies that courts have held that proof of discriminatory motive is required in steering cases.)
        protomyth 11y ago
        "9. Many of my clients ask me questions about the neighborhood, such as: “Who lives here? Are there any [fill in ethnic/racial group]?” How should I respond to questions like these? Let your clients know that you cannot provide information on racial, ethnic or other protected class demographics under the fair housing laws, which prohibit discrimination based on such factors. Consider giving all of your clients a written statement about your commitment to fair housing when you first start working with them. This statement also can let clients know what services you can provide them and what information they’ll need to find out on their own. When you discuss your commitment to fair housing early on, your clients may be less likely to express their possible biases. Many agents give a resource packet to all clients at the first meeting. The packet provides a broad range of information, including online resources to locate up-to-date neighborhood census information, community resources, local media, etc. By providing general information to all of your clients, you make it easier for them to find the perfect home. See Appendix B for some area resources for home buyers to include in your own packet. For your own protection, make sure you document any specific requests from your prospects and clients that you feel may have fair housing implications. Keep a record in your files of both the request and your response." http://www.kingcounty.gov/~/media/exec/civilrights/documents/100QsRE.ashx?la=en http://www.kingcounty.gov/~/media/exec/civilrights/documents...
- pc86 11y ago
  Because god forbid someone be able to actually find out from their real estate agent if a property is in a good part of town or not.
verbatim 11y ago
I've seen a friend ask vague questions trying to determine what kind of population lived in an apartment complex she was interested in renting from, and quickly get blanket responses not wanting to answer such questions, with references to the Fair Housing Act. I don't recall all of the exact details, but, to your general question, I think the answer is at least "yeah, sometimes".
- pc86 11y ago
  Why was it relevant to your friend what the demographics of her neighbors would be?
scott_s 11y ago
From a real estate agent, yes, I would surprised if that was not forbidden by the Fair Housing Act. Also, I assume, from landlords or sellers. But I also assume that does not extend to people who are part of the renting and selling of homes.
protomyth 11y ago
Protected class in the Fair Housing Act, so in the US (I have no idea about the UK) it is true. One online real estate statistics site got hit with it but its been a while so I don't remember who.
sbochins 11y ago
Of course not. Many of the documents still in circulation stipulate that houses cannot be sold to black people. That was the law for many districts and FHA policy prior to the civil rights movement.
pdkl95 11y ago
While I"m not familiar with specific laws in this area, the practice known as "redlining" is a serious issue that has been a big force for keeping segregation alive de facto. If this is new information for you (it really shouldn't be, but better late than never), I strongly recommend reading Ta-Nehisi Coates's impressive history and analysis of the racist problems in the housing industry. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case...

Wait, What? There is a law against giving racist real estate advice? That, isn't actually true, is it? You are joking? Is that actually true?!

by drdeca 11y ago

Wait, What? There is a law against giving racist real estate advice? That, isn't actually true, is it? You are joking? Is that actually true?!

kruipen 11y ago

Relax. Even if there is such a law it certainly is not illegal in USA to "advocate (...) opinions (...) in public". See what happened last time someone thought advocating opinions was illegal [1]... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC

oh_sigh 11y ago
The original poster is talking specifically about real estate professionals.

nsxwolf 11y ago

I know that my wife isn't allowed to answer the question "Are the schools good here?" with anything other than "This home is in school district 123", or "you'll have to do your own research". It's considered "steering". (Because Good Schools is considered a dog whistle for "white neighborhood")

dragonwriter 11y ago
The policies enforced by particular offices (often based on an excess of caution, and often based on mythology of law rather than actual legal advice) are a different thing than the law. It absolutely is not illegal to provide answers to that question more directly when selling real estate (and, in fact, most agents I've dealt with or encountered will, though rather than providing their opinion they will rather directly provide statistical data which answers that question -- and others -- with comparative information; the package I got from the agent for the last house I considered buying included not only school performance information for the neighborhood compared to other areas in the region, but also income information, family size information, and other demographics.) Providing a bare and unsupported simple subjective "good" or "bad" answer is probably more legally dangerous than providing factual information, not because "good schools" is dog whistle for "white neighborhood" (in fact, its neither illegal nor uncommon to provide factual information which fairly directly gives information about ethnic/racial demographics), but because someone else might convince a court that your description was slanted because you were trying to steer the buyer based on your perception of their racial fit, rather than trying to provide them factual information about the existing character of the neighborhood which might be relevant to their decision.
- protomyth 11y ago
  "It absolutely is not illegal to provide answers to that question more directly when selling real estate" As applied in the US (not the original article, but I suspect where nsxwolf is talking about), the Federal Fair Housing Act (Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968) would prohibit certain questions from being answered. http://www.jmls.edu/clinics/fairhousing/pdf/fair-housing-primer.pdf http://www.jmls.edu/clinics/fairhousing/pdf/fair-housing-pri...
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > As applied in the US (not the original article, but I suspect where nsxwolf is talking about), the Federal Fair Housing Act (Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968) would prohibit certain questions from being answered. I can't find anything in your source to support that claim that answering questions would be prohibited, in fact, it seems to directly contradict the claim about merely providing an opinion on school quality being prohibited as steering (p. 12, "Racial steering is where a real estate agent steers white persons to one community or area and minorities to another community or area. [...] The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has held the proof of a discriminatory motive is required in a steering case.")
    - protomyth 11y ago
      It comes under the racial steering section
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        > It comes under the racial steering section The racial steering section does not support the claim that answering questions is prohibited (in fact, it specifically as I quoted identifies that courts have held that proof of discriminatory motive is required in steering cases.)
        protomyth 11y ago
        "9. Many of my clients ask me questions about the neighborhood, such as: “Who lives here? Are there any [fill in ethnic/racial group]?” How should I respond to questions like these? Let your clients know that you cannot provide information on racial, ethnic or other protected class demographics under the fair housing laws, which prohibit discrimination based on such factors. Consider giving all of your clients a written statement about your commitment to fair housing when you first start working with them. This statement also can let clients know what services you can provide them and what information they’ll need to find out on their own. When you discuss your commitment to fair housing early on, your clients may be less likely to express their possible biases. Many agents give a resource packet to all clients at the first meeting. The packet provides a broad range of information, including online resources to locate up-to-date neighborhood census information, community resources, local media, etc. By providing general information to all of your clients, you make it easier for them to find the perfect home. See Appendix B for some area resources for home buyers to include in your own packet. For your own protection, make sure you document any specific requests from your prospects and clients that you feel may have fair housing implications. Keep a record in your files of both the request and your response." http://www.kingcounty.gov/~/media/exec/civilrights/documents/100QsRE.ashx?la=en http://www.kingcounty.gov/~/media/exec/civilrights/documents...
pc86 11y ago
Because god forbid someone be able to actually find out from their real estate agent if a property is in a good part of town or not.

verbatim 11y ago

I've seen a friend ask vague questions trying to determine what kind of population lived in an apartment complex she was interested in renting from, and quickly get blanket responses not wanting to answer such questions, with references to the Fair Housing Act. I don't recall all of the exact details, but, to your general question, I think the answer is at least "yeah, sometimes".

pc86 11y ago
Why was it relevant to your friend what the demographics of her neighbors would be?

scott_s 11y ago

From a real estate agent, yes, I would surprised if that was not forbidden by the Fair Housing Act. Also, I assume, from landlords or sellers. But I also assume that does not extend to people who are part of the renting and selling of homes.

protomyth 11y ago

Protected class in the Fair Housing Act, so in the US (I have no idea about the UK) it is true. One online real estate statistics site got hit with it but its been a while so I don't remember who.

sbochins 11y ago

Of course not. Many of the documents still in circulation stipulate that houses cannot be sold to black people. That was the law for many districts and FHA policy prior to the civil rights movement.

pdkl95 11y ago

While I"m not familiar with specific laws in this area, the practice known as "redlining" is a serious issue that has been a big force for keeping segregation alive de facto. If this is new information for you (it really shouldn't be, but better late than never), I strongly recommend reading Ta-Nehisi Coates's impressive history and analysis of the racist problems in the housing industry. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case...