6 ms·

Jogging, fried chicken, and coffee shops. Yup. You'd be paying fines and penalties if you posted this from the USA. I doubt there'd be criminal prosecution und

Jogging, fried chicken, and coffee shops. Yup. You'd be paying fines and penalties if you posted this from the USA. I doubt there'd be criminal prosecution under 42 USC unless you repeatedly continued posting this kind of content after warnings, but that is not legal advice. It's illegal for anyone involved in the housing or real estate industries to propagate racist information. Also it's illegal to advocate racist opinions about housing policy in public discussions. And jogging is just as obvious as fried chicken and coffee shops.

drdeca 11y ago
Wait, What? There is a law against giving racist real estate advice? That, isn't actually true, is it? You are joking? Is that actually true?!
- kruipen 11y ago
  Relax. Even if there is such a law it certainly is not illegal in USA to "advocate (...) opinions (...) in public". See what happened last time someone thought advocating opinions was illegal [1]... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC
  - oh_sigh 11y ago
    The original poster is talking specifically about real estate professionals.
- nsxwolf 11y ago
  I know that my wife isn't allowed to answer the question "Are the schools good here?" with anything other than "This home is in school district 123", or "you'll have to do your own research". It's considered "steering". (Because Good Schools is considered a dog whistle for "white neighborhood")
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    The policies enforced by particular offices (often based on an excess of caution, and often based on mythology of law rather than actual legal advice) are a different thing than the law. It absolutely is not illegal to provide answers to that question more directly when selling real estate (and, in fact, most agents I've dealt with or encountered will, though rather than providing their opinion they will rather directly provide statistical data which answers that question -- and others -- with comparative information; the package I got from the agent for the last house I considered buying included not only school performance information for the neighborhood compared to other areas in the region, but also income information, family size information, and other demographics.) Providing a bare and unsupported simple subjective "good" or "bad" answer is probably more legally dangerous than providing factual information, not because "good schools" is dog whistle for "white neighborhood" (in fact, its neither illegal nor uncommon to provide factual information which fairly directly gives information about ethnic/racial demographics), but because someone else might convince a court that your description was slanted because you were trying to steer the buyer based on your perception of their racial fit, rather than trying to provide them factual information about the existing character of the neighborhood which might be relevant to their decision.
    - protomyth 11y ago
      "It absolutely is not illegal to provide answers to that question more directly when selling real estate" As applied in the US (not the original article, but I suspect where nsxwolf is talking about), the Federal Fair Housing Act (Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968) would prohibit certain questions from being answered. http://www.jmls.edu/clinics/fairhousing/pdf/fair-housing-primer.pdf http://www.jmls.edu/clinics/fairhousing/pdf/fair-housing-pri...
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        > As applied in the US (not the original article, but I suspect where nsxwolf is talking about), the Federal Fair Housing Act (Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968) would prohibit certain questions from being answered. I can't find anything in your source to support that claim that answering questions would be prohibited, in fact, it seems to directly contradict the claim about merely providing an opinion on school quality being prohibited as steering (p. 12, "Racial steering is where a real estate agent steers white persons to one community or area and minorities to another community or area. [...] The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has held the proof of a discriminatory motive is required in a steering case.")
- verbatim 11y ago
  I've seen a friend ask vague questions trying to determine what kind of population lived in an apartment complex she was interested in renting from, and quickly get blanket responses not wanting to answer such questions, with references to the Fair Housing Act. I don't recall all of the exact details, but, to your general question, I think the answer is at least "yeah, sometimes".
  - pc86 11y ago
    Why was it relevant to your friend what the demographics of her neighbors would be?
- scott_s 11y ago
  From a real estate agent, yes, I would surprised if that was not forbidden by the Fair Housing Act. Also, I assume, from landlords or sellers. But I also assume that does not extend to people who are part of the renting and selling of homes.
- protomyth 11y ago
  Protected class in the Fair Housing Act, so in the US (I have no idea about the UK) it is true. One online real estate statistics site got hit with it but its been a while so I don't remember who.
- sbochins 11y ago
  Of course not. Many of the documents still in circulation stipulate that houses cannot be sold to black people. That was the law for many districts and FHA policy prior to the civil rights movement.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  While I"m not familiar with specific laws in this area, the practice known as "redlining" is a serious issue that has been a big force for keeping segregation alive de facto. If this is new information for you (it really shouldn't be, but better late than never), I strongly recommend reading Ta-Nehisi Coates's impressive history and analysis of the racist problems in the housing industry. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case...
BookmarkSaver 11y ago
What the fuck? This is complete bullshit.
varelse 11y ago
And only in the US would this be immediately acted upon as such. And that's because we all have to pretend there's no cultural link between anything and anything else. For we must treat all Americans as ideal beige spherical cows (Oh $h!+ did I just fat shame? Don't sue me! Don't sue me!). So even if a correlation is real, you're just flat out not allowed to say so, right? There are plenty of other flaws in this analysis without having to play the race card, don't you think?
hussong 11y ago
Are jogging, fried chicken and coffee shops clear signals for specific parts of the population outside the US as well? I live in Berlin and would have trouble correlating any of the above with distinct subsets of the population -- all kinds of people from natives to immigrants, young and old, rich and poor go jogging, eat fried chicken (or Döner) and have coffee.
- pc86 11y ago
  Fried chicken is general is associated with African Americans, particularly of lower-middle or lower status. Coffee shops in general are associated with younger, upper-middle class white people. That's not to say there aren't areas where it doesn't hold true very often, but that's the general sentiment.
  - weaksauce 11y ago
    Is that group still called "African Americans" when they are born and raised in England?
    - desas 11y ago
      Sorry, I meant British African Americans
      - Cakez0r 11y ago
        Is this genuinely something that someone would say in America, or are you just making a tongue-in-cheek remark?
        ascorbic 11y ago
        I'd imagine it's a reference to a (possibly apocryphal) interview with Kris Akabusi. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2bf9fw/black_people_of_the_uk_what_are_your_views_on/cj4vf5t https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2bf9fw/black_peo...
copsarebastards 11y ago
Ugh, P.C. white people annoy me. You're not better than a racist, you're just better intentioned. Why on earth would we that poverty and fried chicken (and black people) aren't associated? Racism begets poverty, and poverty begets lack of nutritional education and resources, which causes black people to consume more cheap, fatty foods. Throw in a lot of southern and caribbean cultures, and that equates to fried chicken. Your political correctness is counterproductive. Calling this discussion racist prevents people from talking about it. White people coming up with reasons to cry "racism" so they can feel good about themselves is just another variation of racism. Instead, how about you listen to actual black people.
- pc86 11y ago
  I don't know what in the world you're on about, fried chicken is delicious no matter what color your skin is.
  - copsarebastards 11y ago
    True, but there are other factors in who eats fried chicken than taste. While I don't have statistical evidence, I'd be surprised if black people didn't eat more fried chicken than white people (in the US). As I pointed out, this is likely a function of poverty, not skin color, but poverty and skin color are correlated.

drdeca 11y ago

Wait, What? There is a law against giving racist real estate advice? That, isn't actually true, is it? You are joking? Is that actually true?!

kruipen 11y ago
Relax. Even if there is such a law it certainly is not illegal in USA to "advocate (...) opinions (...) in public". See what happened last time someone thought advocating opinions was illegal [1]... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC
- oh_sigh 11y ago
  The original poster is talking specifically about real estate professionals.
nsxwolf 11y ago
I know that my wife isn't allowed to answer the question "Are the schools good here?" with anything other than "This home is in school district 123", or "you'll have to do your own research". It's considered "steering". (Because Good Schools is considered a dog whistle for "white neighborhood")
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  The policies enforced by particular offices (often based on an excess of caution, and often based on mythology of law rather than actual legal advice) are a different thing than the law. It absolutely is not illegal to provide answers to that question more directly when selling real estate (and, in fact, most agents I've dealt with or encountered will, though rather than providing their opinion they will rather directly provide statistical data which answers that question -- and others -- with comparative information; the package I got from the agent for the last house I considered buying included not only school performance information for the neighborhood compared to other areas in the region, but also income information, family size information, and other demographics.) Providing a bare and unsupported simple subjective "good" or "bad" answer is probably more legally dangerous than providing factual information, not because "good schools" is dog whistle for "white neighborhood" (in fact, its neither illegal nor uncommon to provide factual information which fairly directly gives information about ethnic/racial demographics), but because someone else might convince a court that your description was slanted because you were trying to steer the buyer based on your perception of their racial fit, rather than trying to provide them factual information about the existing character of the neighborhood which might be relevant to their decision.
  - protomyth 11y ago
    "It absolutely is not illegal to provide answers to that question more directly when selling real estate" As applied in the US (not the original article, but I suspect where nsxwolf is talking about), the Federal Fair Housing Act (Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968) would prohibit certain questions from being answered. http://www.jmls.edu/clinics/fairhousing/pdf/fair-housing-primer.pdf http://www.jmls.edu/clinics/fairhousing/pdf/fair-housing-pri...
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > As applied in the US (not the original article, but I suspect where nsxwolf is talking about), the Federal Fair Housing Act (Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968) would prohibit certain questions from being answered. I can't find anything in your source to support that claim that answering questions would be prohibited, in fact, it seems to directly contradict the claim about merely providing an opinion on school quality being prohibited as steering (p. 12, "Racial steering is where a real estate agent steers white persons to one community or area and minorities to another community or area. [...] The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has held the proof of a discriminatory motive is required in a steering case.")
verbatim 11y ago
I've seen a friend ask vague questions trying to determine what kind of population lived in an apartment complex she was interested in renting from, and quickly get blanket responses not wanting to answer such questions, with references to the Fair Housing Act. I don't recall all of the exact details, but, to your general question, I think the answer is at least "yeah, sometimes".
- pc86 11y ago
  Why was it relevant to your friend what the demographics of her neighbors would be?
scott_s 11y ago
From a real estate agent, yes, I would surprised if that was not forbidden by the Fair Housing Act. Also, I assume, from landlords or sellers. But I also assume that does not extend to people who are part of the renting and selling of homes.
protomyth 11y ago
Protected class in the Fair Housing Act, so in the US (I have no idea about the UK) it is true. One online real estate statistics site got hit with it but its been a while so I don't remember who.
sbochins 11y ago
Of course not. Many of the documents still in circulation stipulate that houses cannot be sold to black people. That was the law for many districts and FHA policy prior to the civil rights movement.
pdkl95 11y ago
While I"m not familiar with specific laws in this area, the practice known as "redlining" is a serious issue that has been a big force for keeping segregation alive de facto. If this is new information for you (it really shouldn't be, but better late than never), I strongly recommend reading Ta-Nehisi Coates's impressive history and analysis of the racist problems in the housing industry. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case...

BookmarkSaver 11y ago

What the fuck? This is complete bullshit.

varelse 11y ago

And only in the US would this be immediately acted upon as such. And that's because we all have to pretend there's no cultural link between anything and anything else. For we must treat all Americans as ideal beige spherical cows (Oh $h!+ did I just fat shame? Don't sue me! Don't sue me!). So even if a correlation is real, you're just flat out not allowed to say so, right? There are plenty of other flaws in this analysis without having to play the race card, don't you think?

hussong 11y ago

Are jogging, fried chicken and coffee shops clear signals for specific parts of the population outside the US as well? I live in Berlin and would have trouble correlating any of the above with distinct subsets of the population -- all kinds of people from natives to immigrants, young and old, rich and poor go jogging, eat fried chicken (or Döner) and have coffee.

pc86 11y ago
Fried chicken is general is associated with African Americans, particularly of lower-middle or lower status. Coffee shops in general are associated with younger, upper-middle class white people. That's not to say there aren't areas where it doesn't hold true very often, but that's the general sentiment.
- weaksauce 11y ago
  Is that group still called "African Americans" when they are born and raised in England?
  - desas 11y ago
    Sorry, I meant British African Americans
    - Cakez0r 11y ago
      Is this genuinely something that someone would say in America, or are you just making a tongue-in-cheek remark?
      - ascorbic 11y ago
        I'd imagine it's a reference to a (possibly apocryphal) interview with Kris Akabusi. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2bf9fw/black_people_of_the_uk_what_are_your_views_on/cj4vf5t https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2bf9fw/black_peo...

copsarebastards 11y ago

Ugh, P.C. white people annoy me. You're not better than a racist, you're just better intentioned. Why on earth would we that poverty and fried chicken (and black people) aren't associated? Racism begets poverty, and poverty begets lack of nutritional education and resources, which causes black people to consume more cheap, fatty foods. Throw in a lot of southern and caribbean cultures, and that equates to fried chicken. Your political correctness is counterproductive. Calling this discussion racist prevents people from talking about it. White people coming up with reasons to cry "racism" so they can feel good about themselves is just another variation of racism. Instead, how about you listen to actual black people.

pc86 11y ago
I don't know what in the world you're on about, fried chicken is delicious no matter what color your skin is.
- copsarebastards 11y ago
  True, but there are other factors in who eats fried chicken than taste. While I don't have statistical evidence, I'd be surprised if black people didn't eat more fried chicken than white people (in the US). As I pointed out, this is likely a function of poverty, not skin color, but poverty and skin color are correlated.