6 ms·

Can you elaborate on taking responsibility for anxiety and depression? It seems to me that those things mostly just happen without the person actively causing i

by spython 11y ago

Can you elaborate on taking responsibility for anxiety and depression? It seems to me that those things mostly just happen without the person actively causing it, so they can not be "responsible" for it.

cpncrunch 11y ago
What I meant was take responsibility for doing something about it. Sure you can't directly control your neurotransmitters, but you can definitely influence them by changing your lifestyle, mental attitude, etc.
- chongli 11y ago
  Depression is the very thing preventing people from doing those things. You might as well tell poor people that they could make a lot of money through investment.
  - cpncrunch 11y ago
    Yes, you're right. My point is that some people deny that it's even possible for them to do anything to help with their depression, even though the evidence is pretty clear that psychological interventions do help. I'm not saying that depression is easy to fix, or the person is to blame for it. I'm just saying that factors such as lifestyle, thought processes, etc. influence anxiety and depression. (edited to better reflect my point)
    - danharaj 11y ago
      Yes, and people who have broken legs should just start running marathons. Shame on them for not taking 'personal responsibility' for being unable to run a marathon. Fuck off.
      - cpncrunch 11y ago
        >Yes, and people who have broken legs should just start running marathons. Shame on them for not taking 'personal responsibility' for being unable to run a marathon. There is overwhelming evidence that stress causes depression and anxiety, and that psychological interventions can help. I'm not aware of any evidence that psychological treatments can cure a broken leg. >Fuck off. You might want to read the rules here. Anyway, thanks for proving my point.
        danharaj 11y ago
        > Anyway, thanks for proving my point. No. Your point is ill-informed, banal, and frankly, just plain offensive. You're incredibly ignorant and I hope you don't interact with anyone who suffers from depression because blaming people with a disease for suffering from that disease because of a personal moral failing is disgusting. You're gross. The things you say are gross. Stop saying them.
        cpncrunch 11y ago
        You're putting words into my mouth. Nowhere did I say that people are to blame for depression, or that it is a moral failing. I'm simply saying that some people don't believe that they can do anything about depression themselves, even though it isn't really in any doubt that psychological treatments help depression. Given your angry ranting in response to my arguments, it sounds like you disbelieve the science, so you are in fact proving my point.
        danharaj 11y ago
        > I'm simply saying that some people don't believe that they can do anything about depression themselves, even though it isn't really in any doubt that psychological treatments help depression. Getting treatment is literally getting help from other people. In other words, it is not doing anything about depression themselves. Also, even though Cognitive Behavior Therapy is very effective at treating depression, it does not help all depression, which doesn't discredit it but indicates that depression is complex ensemble of disorders that cannot all be treated in the same way. Depression that is resistant to CBT and antidepressants is scary. It should also be noted that one of the ways depression manifests is as strong feelings of helplessness, intrusive thoughts, vicious circles of reasoning, and a debilitation of executive function which by definition makes people unable to help themselves. I'm not sure why you even brought up these 'some people' who are not mentioned anywhere in the submitted link and certainly did not come in here to chime in about their deep need to absolve themselves of the crushing guilt that often accompanies the life dysfunction caused by depression. I think you made them up. > You're putting words into my mouth. You used the term 'personal responsibility'. The word 'responsibility' has connotations of duty and obligation. The term 'personal responsibility' as a whole is a dog whistle used commonly in American politics to attack vulnerable populations of people. It is innuendo. The words came out of your mouth, and unfortunately once they're out, they are received in other ears. I'll certainly regret and feel embarrassed having told you to "fuck off" in a few hours or so. C'est la vie. > Given your angry ranting in response to my arguments, it sounds like you disbelieve the science, so you are in fact proving my point. I'm angry because you touched a nerve and this subject is important to me. It doesn't have anything to do with the particulars of my understanding. You're rationalizing away my anger towards you. Is it not at all conceivable to you that you can say something that bothers someone for good reasons?
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - dang 11y ago
        This comment and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10394059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10394059 break the HN guidelines egregiously. We ban accounts that do this. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.
    - marklgr 11y ago
      Blame shifting works both way: some people don't take any responsibility while they should, and some other promptly gives full responsibility to victims. There's always a payoff to one's view of the world, whatever it is.
      - jqm 11y ago
        That is a very good analysis and I agree 100% having seen no shortage of both types of people you mention.
      - cpncrunch 11y ago
        Just to clarify: nobody is blaming victims here (see my edited comment). I'm just blaming people who deny the science.
    - OniBait 11y ago
      It isn't really a "perceived difficulty" thing and your comments seem a bit flippant as if a depression is all due to the person's irresponsibility. Like depression is just because someone is just "sad" but a balloon will cheer them up and they'll be right as rain. As was pointed out in the comment right above this. Someone suffering from depression is often completely incapable of "taking responsibility for fixing it themselves". Imagine the thought process is more like "Why should I even bother to get out of bed today? I'm a horrible person and don't deserve to be happy. I'd rather be dead than live through another day of this horrible existence of a life." -- and then you come along and say "There's nothing wrong with you. You just need to be responsible and live a healthier lifestyle." Hell, that'd just add on to their overwhelming feeling of self-loathing. Good job. You think they wouldn't JUMP at the chance to be able to stop being in a constant state of mental anguish and live a healthier lifestyle?
      - cpncrunch 11y ago
        Yes, you're right. I've edited my original comment. I think the issue is more that some people deny that it's even possible for them to do anything about their depression.
        Tenhundfeld 11y ago
        Honestly, it sounds like you're backpedaling. I don't mean that to be super critical. There's nothing wrong with changing your position in response to feedback, but pretending that's what you originally meant seems a little fishy. But I may be misinterpreting what you're saying. To your clarified point, I'm not sure that's really accurate. I've known a LOT of depressed people and had my own struggles. I've never met a depressed person who logically thought there was nothing they could do to improve the situation. It's well established that regular exercise, sufficient sleep, establishing routines, talk therapy, antidepressants, etc. can help with depression. Again, I've never met anyone who suffered from depression and denied those treatments can help. Anecdotal but true. The problem is that depression is not logical. If you've never experienced it, you really can't understand it. And it's doubly frustrating, because it can manifest itself differently for different people. I read an analogy recently that I thought was pretty decent. Imagine you are sleepy all the time, just dead tired, exhausted, and you feel like you can never really get fully awake. Now imagine you're talking to somebody who never really gets tired; they're just naturally full of energy. Imagine trying to explain to them what being exhausted feels like. It's not a logical thing. It's not that you think it's a smart decision to stay in bed all day. You're just drained of all energy. And when you describe what you're feeling, their response is to give you a bunch of solutions you've already tried. Have you tried drinking coffee? Black out curtains? Maybe your mattress is bad? You know when I'm feeling sluggish, I like to get up and do some exercise, that always perks me up! At that point, you probably want to punch them in the face. They have no idea what they're talking about. If you had enough energy to get up and make coffee – or exercise for christ's sake – you wouldn't be in the situation you are. Aaaaaaaaanyway, I'm not disagreeing that personal accountability is important. You can't help the depressed person (or alcoholic or anybody suffering from a disease), if they don't make an effort get help. The problem with depression is that making an effort – any effort to do anything – is often the very thing that person is unable to do. So, people need to be careful discussing "taking responsibility" for depression, especially if they've never had first- or second-hand experience. Despite their best intentions, they're likely to come off looking like ignorant assholes. From your follow up comments, I think it's clear you're not an asshole. :) But I'm also not terribly surprised by danharaj's visceral response to your original sentiment.
  - dsjoerg 11y ago
    or by getting a job!

by spython 11y ago

cpncrunch 11y ago

What I meant was take responsibility for doing something about it. Sure you can't directly control your neurotransmitters, but you can definitely influence them by changing your lifestyle, mental attitude, etc.

chongli 11y ago
Depression is the very thing preventing people from doing those things. You might as well tell poor people that they could make a lot of money through investment.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  Yes, you're right. My point is that some people deny that it's even possible for them to do anything to help with their depression, even though the evidence is pretty clear that psychological interventions do help. I'm not saying that depression is easy to fix, or the person is to blame for it. I'm just saying that factors such as lifestyle, thought processes, etc. influence anxiety and depression. (edited to better reflect my point)
  - danharaj 11y ago
    Yes, and people who have broken legs should just start running marathons. Shame on them for not taking 'personal responsibility' for being unable to run a marathon. Fuck off.
    - cpncrunch 11y ago
      >Yes, and people who have broken legs should just start running marathons. Shame on them for not taking 'personal responsibility' for being unable to run a marathon. There is overwhelming evidence that stress causes depression and anxiety, and that psychological interventions can help. I'm not aware of any evidence that psychological treatments can cure a broken leg. >Fuck off. You might want to read the rules here. Anyway, thanks for proving my point.
      - danharaj 11y ago
        > Anyway, thanks for proving my point. No. Your point is ill-informed, banal, and frankly, just plain offensive. You're incredibly ignorant and I hope you don't interact with anyone who suffers from depression because blaming people with a disease for suffering from that disease because of a personal moral failing is disgusting. You're gross. The things you say are gross. Stop saying them.
        cpncrunch 11y ago
        You're putting words into my mouth. Nowhere did I say that people are to blame for depression, or that it is a moral failing. I'm simply saying that some people don't believe that they can do anything about depression themselves, even though it isn't really in any doubt that psychological treatments help depression. Given your angry ranting in response to my arguments, it sounds like you disbelieve the science, so you are in fact proving my point.
        danharaj 11y ago
        > I'm simply saying that some people don't believe that they can do anything about depression themselves, even though it isn't really in any doubt that psychological treatments help depression. Getting treatment is literally getting help from other people. In other words, it is not doing anything about depression themselves. Also, even though Cognitive Behavior Therapy is very effective at treating depression, it does not help all depression, which doesn't discredit it but indicates that depression is complex ensemble of disorders that cannot all be treated in the same way. Depression that is resistant to CBT and antidepressants is scary. It should also be noted that one of the ways depression manifests is as strong feelings of helplessness, intrusive thoughts, vicious circles of reasoning, and a debilitation of executive function which by definition makes people unable to help themselves. I'm not sure why you even brought up these 'some people' who are not mentioned anywhere in the submitted link and certainly did not come in here to chime in about their deep need to absolve themselves of the crushing guilt that often accompanies the life dysfunction caused by depression. I think you made them up. > You're putting words into my mouth. You used the term 'personal responsibility'. The word 'responsibility' has connotations of duty and obligation. The term 'personal responsibility' as a whole is a dog whistle used commonly in American politics to attack vulnerable populations of people. It is innuendo. The words came out of your mouth, and unfortunately once they're out, they are received in other ears. I'll certainly regret and feel embarrassed having told you to "fuck off" in a few hours or so. C'est la vie. > Given your angry ranting in response to my arguments, it sounds like you disbelieve the science, so you are in fact proving my point. I'm angry because you touched a nerve and this subject is important to me. It doesn't have anything to do with the particulars of my understanding. You're rationalizing away my anger towards you. Is it not at all conceivable to you that you can say something that bothers someone for good reasons?
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - dang 11y ago
      This comment and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10394059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10394059 break the HN guidelines egregiously. We ban accounts that do this. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.
  - marklgr 11y ago
    Blame shifting works both way: some people don't take any responsibility while they should, and some other promptly gives full responsibility to victims. There's always a payoff to one's view of the world, whatever it is.
    - jqm 11y ago
      That is a very good analysis and I agree 100% having seen no shortage of both types of people you mention.
    - cpncrunch 11y ago
      Just to clarify: nobody is blaming victims here (see my edited comment). I'm just blaming people who deny the science.
  - OniBait 11y ago
    It isn't really a "perceived difficulty" thing and your comments seem a bit flippant as if a depression is all due to the person's irresponsibility. Like depression is just because someone is just "sad" but a balloon will cheer them up and they'll be right as rain. As was pointed out in the comment right above this. Someone suffering from depression is often completely incapable of "taking responsibility for fixing it themselves". Imagine the thought process is more like "Why should I even bother to get out of bed today? I'm a horrible person and don't deserve to be happy. I'd rather be dead than live through another day of this horrible existence of a life." -- and then you come along and say "There's nothing wrong with you. You just need to be responsible and live a healthier lifestyle." Hell, that'd just add on to their overwhelming feeling of self-loathing. Good job. You think they wouldn't JUMP at the chance to be able to stop being in a constant state of mental anguish and live a healthier lifestyle?
    - cpncrunch 11y ago
      Yes, you're right. I've edited my original comment. I think the issue is more that some people deny that it's even possible for them to do anything about their depression.
      - Tenhundfeld 11y ago
        Honestly, it sounds like you're backpedaling. I don't mean that to be super critical. There's nothing wrong with changing your position in response to feedback, but pretending that's what you originally meant seems a little fishy. But I may be misinterpreting what you're saying. To your clarified point, I'm not sure that's really accurate. I've known a LOT of depressed people and had my own struggles. I've never met a depressed person who logically thought there was nothing they could do to improve the situation. It's well established that regular exercise, sufficient sleep, establishing routines, talk therapy, antidepressants, etc. can help with depression. Again, I've never met anyone who suffered from depression and denied those treatments can help. Anecdotal but true. The problem is that depression is not logical. If you've never experienced it, you really can't understand it. And it's doubly frustrating, because it can manifest itself differently for different people. I read an analogy recently that I thought was pretty decent. Imagine you are sleepy all the time, just dead tired, exhausted, and you feel like you can never really get fully awake. Now imagine you're talking to somebody who never really gets tired; they're just naturally full of energy. Imagine trying to explain to them what being exhausted feels like. It's not a logical thing. It's not that you think it's a smart decision to stay in bed all day. You're just drained of all energy. And when you describe what you're feeling, their response is to give you a bunch of solutions you've already tried. Have you tried drinking coffee? Black out curtains? Maybe your mattress is bad? You know when I'm feeling sluggish, I like to get up and do some exercise, that always perks me up! At that point, you probably want to punch them in the face. They have no idea what they're talking about. If you had enough energy to get up and make coffee – or exercise for christ's sake – you wouldn't be in the situation you are. Aaaaaaaaanyway, I'm not disagreeing that personal accountability is important. You can't help the depressed person (or alcoholic or anybody suffering from a disease), if they don't make an effort get help. The problem with depression is that making an effort – any effort to do anything – is often the very thing that person is unable to do. So, people need to be careful discussing "taking responsibility" for depression, especially if they've never had first- or second-hand experience. Despite their best intentions, they're likely to come off looking like ignorant assholes. From your follow up comments, I think it's clear you're not an asshole. :) But I'm also not terribly surprised by danharaj's visceral response to your original sentiment.
- dsjoerg 11y ago
  or by getting a job!