3 ms·

It could be that, but it could also be a general approach towards life. Certainly people are born into poor circumstances and have many misfortunes. At the sam

by jqm 11y ago

It could be that, but it could also be a general approach towards life. Certainly people are born into poor circumstances and have many misfortunes. At the same time some people (for whatever reason) are just lazy, sloppy and don't take care of their lives. This approach likely produces both poverty and poor health and almost certainly entails lack of exercise. We can't excuse every bad thing that happens as an event out of people's personal control. There is too much of that going on lately and it doesn't help anyone imop.

Retra 11y ago
Who's making excuses? Poor people often come from poor cultures -- ones that don't place value on things like jogging in the morning. That's just a fact, it isn't an excuse or a statement about personal control. And we, as a society, have the ability to influence both individual behavior and culture, so it doesn't even matter which one you want to assign blame to.
- jqm 11y ago
  While not necessarily "excuse making", the original poster gives a reason he thinks poor people don't exercise (because they are working too hard). I believe, in general, the reasons poor people don't exercise are not that at all, but results from the same types of behaviors and attitudes that encourage poverty. I'm not assigning cause necessarily... I agree when you say the problem is likely often cultural. People from different cultures or with different metabolisms certainly have an easier/harder time dealing with certain things in life. But until attitudes and behaviors change (by whatever means), the facts on the ground stay the same. Very rarely is outcome 100% happenstance.
  - nwienert 11y ago
    Woah, I think you're way off here. All class systems are a result of how you're raised. Raise a "poor" person in a rich family and they will be smarter, more healthy, etc. Likewise take a rich baby and put it in a poor family and watch it's environment mold it. Humans in general are striking similar physically. We are all homo-sapiens. It's almost entirely nurture, it was sad to read your comment because to deny that being raised by parents who are often tired, overworked, underfed, undereducated, etc, etc, doesn't continue a cycle.
    - biomcgary 11y ago
      What published studies with adequate controls and replication show that "It's almost entirely nurture"? Do you think genetic variance between individuals is irrelevant for life outcomes? If genetics is not entirely irrelevant, do you think it might cumulatively affect individuals through a gene-by-environment interaction?
    - rizzom5000 11y ago
      > It's almost entirely nurture It might depend on what variables you're referring to, but according to some famous studies done on identical twins separated at birth; intelligence and personality are about 70% genetic and 30% environment. While these studies conclusively suggest that it's actually 'almost entirely nature', I agree that the potential 30% disadvantage is something that can and should be fixed.
    - jqm 11y ago
      I don't know how much nature/nurture is involved. I assume some percentage of each in most cases. And, I'm not blaming victims nor suggesting people pull themselves up by their bootstraps in the face of massive adversity (which is what people often appear to assume when "responsibility" is mentioned). Very simply, I don't think being overworked is the leading cause of the negative correlation between poverty and exercise (if one even exists). Instead, a confounding variable (a behavior or attitude) common to both poverty and lack of exercise exists and results in a manifestation of both (in most, but certainly not all cases).
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    >the original poster gives a reason he thinks poor people don't exercise (because they are working too hard) The original poster did not claim that. The poster claimed that they would be restricted in how much energy could be expended elsewhere due to the amount energy expended acquiring income. >behaviors and attitudes that encourage poverty Such as? I'm not sure lazy and sloppy are really behaviors or attitudes. They seem to just be your subjective judgement of someone else. Behaviors and attitudes that encourage poverty are probably those that inhibit learning.
    - Consultant32452 11y ago
      But I'm white, speak English, was born to a middle class family that valued education, and sit in the air conditioning all day for work. I'm clearly a hard worker. Now the guy who cuts my lawn? He was born in another country, came from a family that didn't value education or even speak English, and his office is 100 degrees in the summer here. He's clearly lazy.
      - galfarragem 11y ago
        'You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with.' - Tony Robbins I'm center/right wing also but coming from a poor neighborhood I know that things are not so clear as you say. It takes an _huge_ effort to get out from that way of life specially when you are younger. I was lucky to have a family that value learning but I know that it was a minority there. Most school friends at the time didn't have ANY books at home and their parents didn't care about that. Yes, some people are lazy. Yes, most people are proud ignorants. But the surrounding culture took them there. Among rich families there are lazy people also but their 'infrastructure' simplifies a lot their life. e.g. Rich people can afford to hire people to help them with chores so they have more time for themselves. Poor people can't so their chores start to accumulate and everything around them seems sloppy.. to complicate the situation they are used to it once most people around them do the same.
    - jqm 11y ago
      "The poster claimed that they would be restricted in how much energy could be expended elsewhere due to the amount energy expended acquiring income." Wait...how exactly is that different from "working too hard to exercise"? Sure, everything is subjective. Everything is a matter of degree and scale and perspective. Still... certain attitudes and behaviors are more likely to result in certain outcomes. This is true irrespective of "who is at fault".

by jqm 11y ago

Retra 11y ago

Who's making excuses? Poor people often come from poor cultures -- ones that don't place value on things like jogging in the morning. That's just a fact, it isn't an excuse or a statement about personal control. And we, as a society, have the ability to influence both individual behavior and culture, so it doesn't even matter which one you want to assign blame to.

jqm 11y ago
While not necessarily "excuse making", the original poster gives a reason he thinks poor people don't exercise (because they are working too hard). I believe, in general, the reasons poor people don't exercise are not that at all, but results from the same types of behaviors and attitudes that encourage poverty. I'm not assigning cause necessarily... I agree when you say the problem is likely often cultural. People from different cultures or with different metabolisms certainly have an easier/harder time dealing with certain things in life. But until attitudes and behaviors change (by whatever means), the facts on the ground stay the same. Very rarely is outcome 100% happenstance.
- nwienert 11y ago
  Woah, I think you're way off here. All class systems are a result of how you're raised. Raise a "poor" person in a rich family and they will be smarter, more healthy, etc. Likewise take a rich baby and put it in a poor family and watch it's environment mold it. Humans in general are striking similar physically. We are all homo-sapiens. It's almost entirely nurture, it was sad to read your comment because to deny that being raised by parents who are often tired, overworked, underfed, undereducated, etc, etc, doesn't continue a cycle.
  - biomcgary 11y ago
    What published studies with adequate controls and replication show that "It's almost entirely nurture"? Do you think genetic variance between individuals is irrelevant for life outcomes? If genetics is not entirely irrelevant, do you think it might cumulatively affect individuals through a gene-by-environment interaction?
  - rizzom5000 11y ago
    > It's almost entirely nurture It might depend on what variables you're referring to, but according to some famous studies done on identical twins separated at birth; intelligence and personality are about 70% genetic and 30% environment. While these studies conclusively suggest that it's actually 'almost entirely nature', I agree that the potential 30% disadvantage is something that can and should be fixed.
  - jqm 11y ago
    I don't know how much nature/nurture is involved. I assume some percentage of each in most cases. And, I'm not blaming victims nor suggesting people pull themselves up by their bootstraps in the face of massive adversity (which is what people often appear to assume when "responsibility" is mentioned). Very simply, I don't think being overworked is the leading cause of the negative correlation between poverty and exercise (if one even exists). Instead, a confounding variable (a behavior or attitude) common to both poverty and lack of exercise exists and results in a manifestation of both (in most, but certainly not all cases).
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  >the original poster gives a reason he thinks poor people don't exercise (because they are working too hard) The original poster did not claim that. The poster claimed that they would be restricted in how much energy could be expended elsewhere due to the amount energy expended acquiring income. >behaviors and attitudes that encourage poverty Such as? I'm not sure lazy and sloppy are really behaviors or attitudes. They seem to just be your subjective judgement of someone else. Behaviors and attitudes that encourage poverty are probably those that inhibit learning.
  - Consultant32452 11y ago
    But I'm white, speak English, was born to a middle class family that valued education, and sit in the air conditioning all day for work. I'm clearly a hard worker. Now the guy who cuts my lawn? He was born in another country, came from a family that didn't value education or even speak English, and his office is 100 degrees in the summer here. He's clearly lazy.
    - galfarragem 11y ago
      'You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with.' - Tony Robbins I'm center/right wing also but coming from a poor neighborhood I know that things are not so clear as you say. It takes an _huge_ effort to get out from that way of life specially when you are younger. I was lucky to have a family that value learning but I know that it was a minority there. Most school friends at the time didn't have ANY books at home and their parents didn't care about that. Yes, some people are lazy. Yes, most people are proud ignorants. But the surrounding culture took them there. Among rich families there are lazy people also but their 'infrastructure' simplifies a lot their life. e.g. Rich people can afford to hire people to help them with chores so they have more time for themselves. Poor people can't so their chores start to accumulate and everything around them seems sloppy.. to complicate the situation they are used to it once most people around them do the same.
  - jqm 11y ago
    "The poster claimed that they would be restricted in how much energy could be expended elsewhere due to the amount energy expended acquiring income." Wait...how exactly is that different from "working too hard to exercise"? Sure, everything is subjective. Everything is a matter of degree and scale and perspective. Still... certain attitudes and behaviors are more likely to result in certain outcomes. This is true irrespective of "who is at fault".