6 ms·

The thing is, we already know that the brain influences the gut, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned. All these hand-wavy press releases seem to be saying it'

The thing is, we already know that the brain influences the gut, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned. All these hand-wavy press releases seem to be saying it's a mystery why IBS is linked to anxiety and depression, and yet there is very good evidence that the HPA axis significantly influences gut motility, absorption and bacteria. As for gut-influencing-brain studies, they seem to be quite problematic. You basically have a scientist looking at a mouse and saying "he's running around a bit more than usual". These studies get upvoted quite often here. It's almost as if people don't want to take responsibility for their anxiety and depression...

spython 11y ago
Can you elaborate on taking responsibility for anxiety and depression? It seems to me that those things mostly just happen without the person actively causing it, so they can not be "responsible" for it.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  What I meant was take responsibility for doing something about it. Sure you can't directly control your neurotransmitters, but you can definitely influence them by changing your lifestyle, mental attitude, etc.
  - chongli 11y ago
    Depression is the very thing preventing people from doing those things. You might as well tell poor people that they could make a lot of money through investment.
    - cpncrunch 11y ago
      Yes, you're right. My point is that some people deny that it's even possible for them to do anything to help with their depression, even though the evidence is pretty clear that psychological interventions do help. I'm not saying that depression is easy to fix, or the person is to blame for it. I'm just saying that factors such as lifestyle, thought processes, etc. influence anxiety and depression. (edited to better reflect my point)
      - danharaj 11y ago
        Yes, and people who have broken legs should just start running marathons. Shame on them for not taking 'personal responsibility' for being unable to run a marathon. Fuck off.
        cpncrunch 11y ago
        >Yes, and people who have broken legs should just start running marathons. Shame on them for not taking 'personal responsibility' for being unable to run a marathon. There is overwhelming evidence that stress causes depression and anxiety, and that psychological interventions can help. I'm not aware of any evidence that psychological treatments can cure a broken leg. >Fuck off. You might want to read the rules here. Anyway, thanks for proving my point.
        danharaj 11y ago
        > Anyway, thanks for proving my point. No. Your point is ill-informed, banal, and frankly, just plain offensive. You're incredibly ignorant and I hope you don't interact with anyone who suffers from depression because blaming people with a disease for suffering from that disease because of a personal moral failing is disgusting. You're gross. The things you say are gross. Stop saying them.
        cpncrunch 11y ago
        You're putting words into my mouth. Nowhere did I say that people are to blame for depression, or that it is a moral failing. I'm simply saying that some people don't believe that they can do anything about depression themselves, even though it isn't really in any doubt that psychological treatments help depression. Given your angry ranting in response to my arguments, it sounds like you disbelieve the science, so you are in fact proving my point.
        danharaj 11y ago
        > I'm simply saying that some people don't believe that they can do anything about depression themselves, even though it isn't really in any doubt that psychological treatments help depression. Getting treatment is literally getting help from other people. In other words, it is not doing anything about depression themselves. Also, even though Cognitive Behavior Therapy is very effective at treating depression, it does not help all depression, which doesn't discredit it but indicates that depression is complex ensemble of disorders that cannot all be treated in the same way. Depression that is resistant to CBT and antidepressants is scary. It should also be noted that one of the ways depression manifests is as strong feelings of helplessness, intrusive thoughts, vicious circles of reasoning, and a debilitation of executive function which by definition makes people unable to help themselves. I'm not sure why you even brought up these 'some people' who are not mentioned anywhere in the submitted link and certainly did not come in here to chime in about their deep need to absolve themselves of the crushing guilt that often accompanies the life dysfunction caused by depression. I think you made them up. > You're putting words into my mouth. You used the term 'personal responsibility'. The word 'responsibility' has connotations of duty and obligation. The term 'personal responsibility' as a whole is a dog whistle used commonly in American politics to attack vulnerable populations of people. It is innuendo. The words came out of your mouth, and unfortunately once they're out, they are received in other ears. I'll certainly regret and feel embarrassed having told you to "fuck off" in a few hours or so. C'est la vie. > Given your angry ranting in response to my arguments, it sounds like you disbelieve the science, so you are in fact proving my point. I'm angry because you touched a nerve and this subject is important to me. It doesn't have anything to do with the particulars of my understanding. You're rationalizing away my anger towards you. Is it not at all conceivable to you that you can say something that bothers someone for good reasons?
    - dsjoerg 11y ago
      or by getting a job!
javert 11y ago
> The thing is, we already know that the brain influences the gut, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned. All these hand-wavy press releases seem to be saying it's a mystery why IBS is linked to anxiety and depression, and yet there is very good evidence that the HPA axis significantly influences gut motility, absorption and bacteria. Do you have a recommendation for further reading on this? (Specifically, the brain influincing the gut, not vice versa.) Purely anecdotal: I have a lot of digestion problems, but it is starting to look like I do better when I am able to maintain a non-depressed, non-anxious state of mind over a period of weeks.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  >Do you have a recommendation for further reading on this? (Specifically, the brain influincing the gut, not vice versa.) Try: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2982.2008.01171.x/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2982.2008.... http://www.researchgate.net/publication/14603941_Stratakis_CA_Chrousos_GP._Neuroendocrinology_and_pathophysiology_of_the_stress_system http://www.researchgate.net/publication/14603941_Stratakis_C...
pavedwalden 11y ago
I get excited about the prospect of a gut/brain connection precisely because it might be another way to address depression.
dang 11y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10392909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10392909 and marked it off-topic.

spython 11y ago

Can you elaborate on taking responsibility for anxiety and depression? It seems to me that those things mostly just happen without the person actively causing it, so they can not be "responsible" for it.

cpncrunch 11y ago
What I meant was take responsibility for doing something about it. Sure you can't directly control your neurotransmitters, but you can definitely influence them by changing your lifestyle, mental attitude, etc.
- chongli 11y ago
  Depression is the very thing preventing people from doing those things. You might as well tell poor people that they could make a lot of money through investment.
  - cpncrunch 11y ago
    Yes, you're right. My point is that some people deny that it's even possible for them to do anything to help with their depression, even though the evidence is pretty clear that psychological interventions do help. I'm not saying that depression is easy to fix, or the person is to blame for it. I'm just saying that factors such as lifestyle, thought processes, etc. influence anxiety and depression. (edited to better reflect my point)
    - danharaj 11y ago
      Yes, and people who have broken legs should just start running marathons. Shame on them for not taking 'personal responsibility' for being unable to run a marathon. Fuck off.
      - cpncrunch 11y ago
        >Yes, and people who have broken legs should just start running marathons. Shame on them for not taking 'personal responsibility' for being unable to run a marathon. There is overwhelming evidence that stress causes depression and anxiety, and that psychological interventions can help. I'm not aware of any evidence that psychological treatments can cure a broken leg. >Fuck off. You might want to read the rules here. Anyway, thanks for proving my point.
        danharaj 11y ago
        > Anyway, thanks for proving my point. No. Your point is ill-informed, banal, and frankly, just plain offensive. You're incredibly ignorant and I hope you don't interact with anyone who suffers from depression because blaming people with a disease for suffering from that disease because of a personal moral failing is disgusting. You're gross. The things you say are gross. Stop saying them.
        cpncrunch 11y ago
        You're putting words into my mouth. Nowhere did I say that people are to blame for depression, or that it is a moral failing. I'm simply saying that some people don't believe that they can do anything about depression themselves, even though it isn't really in any doubt that psychological treatments help depression. Given your angry ranting in response to my arguments, it sounds like you disbelieve the science, so you are in fact proving my point.
        danharaj 11y ago
        > I'm simply saying that some people don't believe that they can do anything about depression themselves, even though it isn't really in any doubt that psychological treatments help depression. Getting treatment is literally getting help from other people. In other words, it is not doing anything about depression themselves. Also, even though Cognitive Behavior Therapy is very effective at treating depression, it does not help all depression, which doesn't discredit it but indicates that depression is complex ensemble of disorders that cannot all be treated in the same way. Depression that is resistant to CBT and antidepressants is scary. It should also be noted that one of the ways depression manifests is as strong feelings of helplessness, intrusive thoughts, vicious circles of reasoning, and a debilitation of executive function which by definition makes people unable to help themselves. I'm not sure why you even brought up these 'some people' who are not mentioned anywhere in the submitted link and certainly did not come in here to chime in about their deep need to absolve themselves of the crushing guilt that often accompanies the life dysfunction caused by depression. I think you made them up. > You're putting words into my mouth. You used the term 'personal responsibility'. The word 'responsibility' has connotations of duty and obligation. The term 'personal responsibility' as a whole is a dog whistle used commonly in American politics to attack vulnerable populations of people. It is innuendo. The words came out of your mouth, and unfortunately once they're out, they are received in other ears. I'll certainly regret and feel embarrassed having told you to "fuck off" in a few hours or so. C'est la vie. > Given your angry ranting in response to my arguments, it sounds like you disbelieve the science, so you are in fact proving my point. I'm angry because you touched a nerve and this subject is important to me. It doesn't have anything to do with the particulars of my understanding. You're rationalizing away my anger towards you. Is it not at all conceivable to you that you can say something that bothers someone for good reasons?
  - dsjoerg 11y ago
    or by getting a job!

javert 11y ago

> The thing is, we already know that the brain influences the gut, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned. All these hand-wavy press releases seem to be saying it's a mystery why IBS is linked to anxiety and depression, and yet there is very good evidence that the HPA axis significantly influences gut motility, absorption and bacteria. Do you have a recommendation for further reading on this? (Specifically, the brain influincing the gut, not vice versa.) Purely anecdotal: I have a lot of digestion problems, but it is starting to look like I do better when I am able to maintain a non-depressed, non-anxious state of mind over a period of weeks.

cpncrunch 11y ago
>Do you have a recommendation for further reading on this? (Specifically, the brain influincing the gut, not vice versa.) Try: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2982.2008.01171.x/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2982.2008.... http://www.researchgate.net/publication/14603941_Stratakis_CA_Chrousos_GP._Neuroendocrinology_and_pathophysiology_of_the_stress_system http://www.researchgate.net/publication/14603941_Stratakis_C...

pavedwalden 11y ago

I get excited about the prospect of a gut/brain connection precisely because it might be another way to address depression.

dang 11y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10392909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10392909 and marked it off-topic.