9 ms·

The tantalizing links between gut microbes and the brain

86 points by etiam 11y ago

medymed 11y ago
So many gut microbiome variables, so many neurologic variables in the brain, so many type 1 errors calling out from the data in seductive whispers "publish me...". While preliminary research is curious, I predict that more medium-term progress will be a result of throwing fecal transplant at many disorders, it will work for a few (like abx-resistant C diff), and it will not work for others even though people will claim it does. and then people will make up biologic stories about how things interact with decreasingly hand wavy (inflammation!) theories that may or may not be practically testable depending on the number of working parts involved. That's how medicine works a lot of the time, anyways.
- giarc 11y ago
  There's not a single biological system in our bodies that isn't incredibly complex and has many moving parts. How do you recommend researcher investigate these interactions without being able to control for all these factors?
  - brightball 11y ago
    This is absolutely true, which is why virtually any study around Autism is complicated. It's virtually impossible to prove or disprove anything from causes to treatments simply because collecting control groups on such a wide spectrum is nearly impossible on it's own.
  - medymed 11y ago
    Great question. I think this is why organ systems with (arguably) relatively fewer interconnecting parts and more accessible parts than the brain, for example blood, are easier to research. Not all of the parts will be able to be controlled, and the closest approximations are probably animal models with a few cloned or inducible genetic changes where significant results are not easily generalizable to people. Biology will probably not be like physics or chemistry, where underlying principles are often generalizable to matter under specified conditions, because we can't defineand control the initial context within and around a human, and ethical guidelines ensure that studies are limited to a morally acceptable degree. So we often have to see what works/fails in practice and explain it in terms of what we know, try to fill in the gaps with more research, and see where it takes us in terms of new treatment possibilities. It's a very iterative ordeal.
saneshark 11y ago
The Mütter Museum in Philadelphia currently has Einstein's brain on display. With all the controversy surrounding how his brain was stolen against the will of Einstein and his heirs, it would be ironic if all one really needed to recreate his genius was his fecal matter.
cpncrunch 11y ago
The thing is, we already know that the brain influences the gut, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned. All these hand-wavy press releases seem to be saying it's a mystery why IBS is linked to anxiety and depression, and yet there is very good evidence that the HPA axis significantly influences gut motility, absorption and bacteria. As for gut-influencing-brain studies, they seem to be quite problematic. You basically have a scientist looking at a mouse and saying "he's running around a bit more than usual". These studies get upvoted quite often here. It's almost as if people don't want to take responsibility for their anxiety and depression...
- spython 11y ago
  Can you elaborate on taking responsibility for anxiety and depression? It seems to me that those things mostly just happen without the person actively causing it, so they can not be "responsible" for it.
  - cpncrunch 11y ago
    What I meant was take responsibility for doing something about it. Sure you can't directly control your neurotransmitters, but you can definitely influence them by changing your lifestyle, mental attitude, etc.
    - chongli 11y ago
      Depression is the very thing preventing people from doing those things. You might as well tell poor people that they could make a lot of money through investment.
      - cpncrunch 11y ago
        Yes, you're right. My point is that some people deny that it's even possible for them to do anything to help with their depression, even though the evidence is pretty clear that psychological interventions do help. I'm not saying that depression is easy to fix, or the person is to blame for it. I'm just saying that factors such as lifestyle, thought processes, etc. influence anxiety and depression. (edited to better reflect my point)
curiousjorge 11y ago
it makes sense. poor people can't afford healthy diet so they have more microbes leading to sociopath behaviors like robbing banks, stealing, killing, looting and then making rap songs about it. Nortorious BIG I bet had lot of em

86 points by etiam 11y ago

So many gut microbiome variables, so many neurologic variables in the brain, so many type 1 errors calling out from the data in seductive whispers "publish me...". While preliminary research is curious, I predict that more medium-term progress will be a result of throwing fecal transplant at many disorders, it will work for a few (like abx-resistant C diff), and it will not work for others even though people will claim it does. and then people will make up biologic stories about how things interact with decreasingly hand wavy (inflammation!) theories that may or may not be practically testable depending on the number of working parts involved. That's how medicine works a lot of the time, anyways.

giarc 11y ago
There's not a single biological system in our bodies that isn't incredibly complex and has many moving parts. How do you recommend researcher investigate these interactions without being able to control for all these factors?
- brightball 11y ago
  This is absolutely true, which is why virtually any study around Autism is complicated. It's virtually impossible to prove or disprove anything from causes to treatments simply because collecting control groups on such a wide spectrum is nearly impossible on it's own.
- medymed 11y ago
  Great question. I think this is why organ systems with (arguably) relatively fewer interconnecting parts and more accessible parts than the brain, for example blood, are easier to research. Not all of the parts will be able to be controlled, and the closest approximations are probably animal models with a few cloned or inducible genetic changes where significant results are not easily generalizable to people. Biology will probably not be like physics or chemistry, where underlying principles are often generalizable to matter under specified conditions, because we can't defineand control the initial context within and around a human, and ethical guidelines ensure that studies are limited to a morally acceptable degree. So we often have to see what works/fails in practice and explain it in terms of what we know, try to fill in the gaps with more research, and see where it takes us in terms of new treatment possibilities. It's a very iterative ordeal.

saneshark 11y ago

The Mütter Museum in Philadelphia currently has Einstein's brain on display. With all the controversy surrounding how his brain was stolen against the will of Einstein and his heirs, it would be ironic if all one really needed to recreate his genius was his fecal matter.

cpncrunch 11y ago

The thing is, we already know that the brain influences the gut, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned. All these hand-wavy press releases seem to be saying it's a mystery why IBS is linked to anxiety and depression, and yet there is very good evidence that the HPA axis significantly influences gut motility, absorption and bacteria. As for gut-influencing-brain studies, they seem to be quite problematic. You basically have a scientist looking at a mouse and saying "he's running around a bit more than usual". These studies get upvoted quite often here. It's almost as if people don't want to take responsibility for their anxiety and depression...

spython 11y ago
Can you elaborate on taking responsibility for anxiety and depression? It seems to me that those things mostly just happen without the person actively causing it, so they can not be "responsible" for it.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  What I meant was take responsibility for doing something about it. Sure you can't directly control your neurotransmitters, but you can definitely influence them by changing your lifestyle, mental attitude, etc.
  - chongli 11y ago
    Depression is the very thing preventing people from doing those things. You might as well tell poor people that they could make a lot of money through investment.
    - cpncrunch 11y ago
      Yes, you're right. My point is that some people deny that it's even possible for them to do anything to help with their depression, even though the evidence is pretty clear that psychological interventions do help. I'm not saying that depression is easy to fix, or the person is to blame for it. I'm just saying that factors such as lifestyle, thought processes, etc. influence anxiety and depression. (edited to better reflect my point)

curiousjorge 11y ago

it makes sense. poor people can't afford healthy diet so they have more microbes leading to sociopath behaviors like robbing banks, stealing, killing, looting and then making rap songs about it. Nortorious BIG I bet had lot of em