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Strong borders came with the welfare state to avoid a tragedy of the commons. Remove various fundamental benefits such as public school, medical care, welfare,

by mahyarm 11y ago

Strong borders came with the welfare state to avoid a tragedy of the commons. Remove various fundamental benefits such as public school, medical care, welfare, transit, subsidized X and the millions of other benefits created in the past 120 years and open borders are not as big of a deal anymore. You just need to hop on a boat and arrive at ellis island, like the ancestors of many americans today. There are also parallels with city zoning laws. Go buy a house and find out how many restrictions and regulations there are on the parcel of land that you have purchased. And also see how much resistance you will get from the local politically active populace if you dare try to change things. Such as creating density. NIMBYism almost seems like a instinctual human reflex. In other places where there isn't a welfare state and so on, it's usually straight up racism and ethnic nationalism.

charlesism 11y ago
"Strong borders came with the welfare state" I don't know what what you mean by "strong borders" but I can't think of any likely interpretation where I could agree with your statement. I'd say centralization of power, and the advancement of technology, have more relevance.
calibraxis 11y ago
Where do I find evidence for this? I just checked, and the welfare state started in the 1880's by German conservatives, to fight bottom-up democracy and socialism. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#History_of_welfare_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#History_of_welfa...) Far before then, rulers and nation states restricted human movement. (http://newint.org/features/1991/09/05/simply/ http://newint.org/features/1991/09/05/simply/) Anyway, the welfare state (which includes government investment in fundamental tech which led to advances like computing, internet, etc) is a major driver of innovation and growth. More humans coming in, treated well, can obviously contribute. (As they already do, exploited for the most miserable societal tasks.)
- notahacker 11y ago
  It's historically inaccurate, but in practice true that without slowing down immigration it's pretty much impossible to sustain a system in which people "looking for work" are entitled to higher PPP incomes and better services than labourers in virtually all the rest of the world. (But there are obvious drawbacks to taking things to the opposite extreme and banning all immigration: it might be a lot more difficult and expensive to run the NHS without immigrant healthcare professionals, for example) But of course you're right that borders have been closed by leaders believing they help enforce cultural and political stability for eons before that.
- LoSboccacc 11y ago
  official welfare state might have become a thing just recently but the concept behind like redistribution of wealth and creating opportunities for class mobility predates it by a couple millenia http://www.britannica.com/topic/alimenta http://www.britannica.com/topic/alimenta http://www.britannica.com/topic/civitas http://www.britannica.com/topic/civitas
arethuza 11y ago
"Strong borders came with the welfare state" The Hadrian and Antonine walls close to where I am suggest otherwise. Also a lot of borders well before the "welfare state" were policed carefully to collect taxes - which is why smuggling was such a big thing in many areas.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  I agree that the GP's statement is disconnected from history, but I'm not sure that your counterexample works. Rome had "the dole" by the time of Julius Caesar (the "bread" in "bread and circuses").

by mahyarm 11y ago

charlesism 11y ago

"Strong borders came with the welfare state" I don't know what what you mean by "strong borders" but I can't think of any likely interpretation where I could agree with your statement. I'd say centralization of power, and the advancement of technology, have more relevance.

calibraxis 11y ago

Where do I find evidence for this? I just checked, and the welfare state started in the 1880's by German conservatives, to fight bottom-up democracy and socialism. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#History_of_welfare_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#History_of_welfa...) Far before then, rulers and nation states restricted human movement. (http://newint.org/features/1991/09/05/simply/ http://newint.org/features/1991/09/05/simply/) Anyway, the welfare state (which includes government investment in fundamental tech which led to advances like computing, internet, etc) is a major driver of innovation and growth. More humans coming in, treated well, can obviously contribute. (As they already do, exploited for the most miserable societal tasks.)

notahacker 11y ago
It's historically inaccurate, but in practice true that without slowing down immigration it's pretty much impossible to sustain a system in which people "looking for work" are entitled to higher PPP incomes and better services than labourers in virtually all the rest of the world. (But there are obvious drawbacks to taking things to the opposite extreme and banning all immigration: it might be a lot more difficult and expensive to run the NHS without immigrant healthcare professionals, for example) But of course you're right that borders have been closed by leaders believing they help enforce cultural and political stability for eons before that.
LoSboccacc 11y ago
official welfare state might have become a thing just recently but the concept behind like redistribution of wealth and creating opportunities for class mobility predates it by a couple millenia http://www.britannica.com/topic/alimenta http://www.britannica.com/topic/alimenta http://www.britannica.com/topic/civitas http://www.britannica.com/topic/civitas

arethuza 11y ago

"Strong borders came with the welfare state" The Hadrian and Antonine walls close to where I am suggest otherwise. Also a lot of borders well before the "welfare state" were policed carefully to collect taxes - which is why smuggling was such a big thing in many areas.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
I agree that the GP's statement is disconnected from history, but I'm not sure that your counterexample works. Rome had "the dole" by the time of Julius Caesar (the "bread" in "bread and circuses").