3 ms·

Pulling over to the side of the road and putting your blinkers on is (almost) always an acceptable solution to an automotive error. Much harder to pull that off

by hguant 11y ago

Pulling over to the side of the road and putting your blinkers on is (almost) always an acceptable solution to an automotive error. Much harder to pull that off at 35,000 feet.

sandworm101 11y ago
It's apples and oranges. Overshooting a turn at by a few seconds at 35,000 feet isn't the end of the world. Missing a turn in a car by even a quarter second means blood on the pavement.
- geon 11y ago
  > Missing a turn in a car by even a quarter second means blood on the pavement. For a race driver perhaps. In traffic, you should keep a low enough speed and large enough distance, that 250 ms isn't a big deal.
Animats 11y ago
If you have a problem at cruising altitude, there's usually time to deal with it. Transport planes can glide 100-200 miles from that altitude if they have to. Most aircraft accidents happen during takeoff, approach, or landing. See NTSB reports.[1] High-altitude accidents are mostly in-flight fires, including two events involving lithium batteries. There is, however, one commercial aircraft crash from problems at altitude (no passengers, ferry flight) worthy of a Darwin Award.[2] [1] http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/aviation.aspx http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/avi... [2] http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0701.pdf http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/A...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- jessaustin 11y ago
  That second report is fascinating. One might hope that even amateur pilots would know power curve characteristics at high altitude, and the flight team's "gosh we're saving a lot of fuel" comments on the CVR inspire a sort of grim amusement, but I wonder whether the incident might actually have saved lives in the long run. If we're going to fly budget carriers like Pinnacle, those carriers are going to employ inexperienced flight crews and attempt to make up it up with training, simulation, and rules. This misadventure identified numerous shortfalls in those. I doubt anyone flying today's Endeavor Air ignores so many stick shakes, uses the same stall procedure at all altitudes, ignores airspeed, hasn't heard of "core lock", or lies so blatantly to ATC in potential emergency situations. I can understand why the report soft-pedaled the training gaps, because after all they didn't need to give the aircrew's survivors any more leverage in the inevitable lawsuit, but I'd expect training to improve anyway. Is it common practice for pilots at budget airlines to read accident reports like this? IANAPilot, but I'd like to be!
kqr 11y ago
As long as you start having problems as high as 35,000 feet there are surprisingly many (although vomit-inducing) ways to deal with your problems by pure physics – i.e. as long as you can use some of your control surfaces, you have a reasonable chance of surviving. The most important variables are velocity and lift vector. At 35,000 feet you have room to gain speed, and even just some of your control surfaces let you manipulate your lift vector in "unconventional" ways.

by hguant 11y ago

Pulling over to the side of the road and putting your blinkers on is (almost) always an acceptable solution to an automotive error. Much harder to pull that off at 35,000 feet.

sandworm101 11y ago

It's apples and oranges. Overshooting a turn at by a few seconds at 35,000 feet isn't the end of the world. Missing a turn in a car by even a quarter second means blood on the pavement.

geon 11y ago
> Missing a turn in a car by even a quarter second means blood on the pavement. For a race driver perhaps. In traffic, you should keep a low enough speed and large enough distance, that 250 ms isn't a big deal.

Animats 11y ago

If you have a problem at cruising altitude, there's usually time to deal with it. Transport planes can glide 100-200 miles from that altitude if they have to. Most aircraft accidents happen during takeoff, approach, or landing. See NTSB reports.[1] High-altitude accidents are mostly in-flight fires, including two events involving lithium batteries. There is, however, one commercial aircraft crash from problems at altitude (no passengers, ferry flight) worthy of a Darwin Award.[2] [1] http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/aviation.aspx http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/avi... [2] http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0701.pdf http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/A...

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
jessaustin 11y ago
That second report is fascinating. One might hope that even amateur pilots would know power curve characteristics at high altitude, and the flight team's "gosh we're saving a lot of fuel" comments on the CVR inspire a sort of grim amusement, but I wonder whether the incident might actually have saved lives in the long run. If we're going to fly budget carriers like Pinnacle, those carriers are going to employ inexperienced flight crews and attempt to make up it up with training, simulation, and rules. This misadventure identified numerous shortfalls in those. I doubt anyone flying today's Endeavor Air ignores so many stick shakes, uses the same stall procedure at all altitudes, ignores airspeed, hasn't heard of "core lock", or lies so blatantly to ATC in potential emergency situations. I can understand why the report soft-pedaled the training gaps, because after all they didn't need to give the aircrew's survivors any more leverage in the inevitable lawsuit, but I'd expect training to improve anyway. Is it common practice for pilots at budget airlines to read accident reports like this? IANAPilot, but I'd like to be!

kqr 11y ago

As long as you start having problems as high as 35,000 feet there are surprisingly many (although vomit-inducing) ways to deal with your problems by pure physics – i.e. as long as you can use some of your control surfaces, you have a reasonable chance of surviving. The most important variables are velocity and lift vector. At 35,000 feet you have room to gain speed, and even just some of your control surfaces let you manipulate your lift vector in "unconventional" ways.