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This is interesting, but not really an R vs. Python comparison. It's an R vs. Pandas/Numpy comparison. For basic (or even advanced) stats, R wins hands down. An

by mbreese 11y ago

This is interesting, but not really an R vs. Python comparison. It's an R vs. Pandas/Numpy comparison. For basic (or even advanced) stats, R wins hands down. And it's really hard to beat ggplot. And CRAN is much better for finding other statistical or data analysis packages. But when you start having to massage the data in the language (database lookups, integrating datasets, more complicated logic), Python is the better "general-purpose" language. It is a pretty steep learning curve to grok the R internal data representations and how things work. The better part of this comparison, in my opinion, is how to perform similar tasks in each language. It would be more beneficial to have a comparison of here is where Python/Pandas is good, here is where R is better, and how to switch between them. Another way of saying this is figuring out when something is too hard in R and it's time to flip to Python for a while...

halflings 11y ago
R has pandas/numpy/scipy integrated in the language (for the most used features at least), but that doesn't make much of a difference because any person that wants to use these tools will do a quick "pip install" to grab them. (which is pretty fast with the new Wheels system) Out of curiosity, why do you consider CRAN to be much better than PyPI?
- mbreese 11y ago
  I'm only thinking about CRAN > PyPI in terms of statistical packages. CRAN is where new statistical analysis techniques / packages are initially published. If you're lucky they might get ported to Python after the fact. I didn't even mention Bioconductor, which is another beast entirely. There isn't an equivalent of Bioconductor for Python at all. And the last time I checked, "pip install numpy" could be quite a pain, especially if you needed to compile dependencies. Rstudio makes it ridiculously easy to install R and add packages. However - for all other types of packages, PyPI is obviously superior. The breadth of packages on PyPI is much better than CRAN. It about choosing the right tool for the job.
  - sandGorgon 11y ago
    the best way to get the entire numpy/scipy/numba package is anaconda[1] [1] https://www.continuum.io/downloads https://www.continuum.io/downloads
nicolapede 11y ago
> And it's really hard to beat ggplot. To be honest, matplotlib seems a good contender to me (http://matplotlib.org/ http://matplotlib.org/). Also, what's wrong with comparing R to Pandas/Numpy ? They can only be used from within Python, right? Edit: just realised from another comment that Pandas/Numpy can be accessed from R, too.
- mbreese 11y ago
  > what's wrong with comparing R to Pandas/Numpy Absolutely nothing. I was referring to the article title that is was an R vs. Python comparison. Python is so much more in terms of a general purpose language than R is. Similarly, R is much more in terms of stats (built-in) than Python. I just thought that it would be more accurate to call the article an R vs. Pandas/NumPy comparison. Even though both of them need an extra plotting library to make publication quality plots. Matplotlib isn't bad by any means - and it's gotten better over the years. But R/ggplot2 produces nicer plots (IMO). I'm not sure that I'd export data from Python into R just for ggplot, but I might.
  - nicolapede 11y ago
    Thanks for the clarification. I am sorry I had got your comment in the wrong way. I am not that familiar with ggplot myself, but I'll give it a go as soon as I'll have the chance.
- 6502nerdface 11y ago
  > > And it's really hard to beat ggplot. > To be honest, matplotlib seems a good contender to me (http://matplotlib.org/ http://matplotlib.org/). They're quite different, though, and I can see why many prefer ggplot. It's a declarative, domain-specific language that implements a Tufte-inspired "grammar of graphics" (hence the gg- in the name; see section 1.3 of [1], and [2,3]) for very fast and convenient interactive plotting, whereas matplotlib is just a clone of MATLIB's procedural plotting API. [1] http://www.amazon.com/ggplot2-Elegant-Graphics-Data-Analysis/dp/0387981403 http://www.amazon.com/ggplot2-Elegant-Graphics-Data-Analysis... [2] http://www.amazon.com/The-Grammar-Graphics-Statistics-Computing/dp/0387245448 http://www.amazon.com/The-Grammar-Graphics-Statistics-Comput... [3] http://vita.had.co.nz/papers/layered-grammar.html http://vita.had.co.nz/papers/layered-grammar.html
dewarrn1 11y ago
Happily, a Python port of ggplot is underway [0], although it's still very much a work in progress. [0] https://github.com/yhat/ggplot/ https://github.com/yhat/ggplot/
- stared 11y ago
  ...with stalled progress. Right now I rather inline R code (with %%R in IPython Notebook) and use the real ggplot2.
  - tadlan 11y ago
    There's a dev branch that has been actively developed
cwyers 11y ago
> It's an R vs. Pandas/Numpy comparison. And yet, you go right on in the next sentence to make it a Python/Pandas/Numpy vs. R/everything in CRAN comparison. Libraries count.
- scott_s 11y ago
  mbreese's point was not that that is wrong or misguided, just that it was happening.
spot 11y ago
totally agree and that's why we made Beaker: http://beakernotebook.com/ http://beakernotebook.com/ you can code in multiple languages in your noteobook, and they can all communicate, making it easy to go from Python to R to JavaScript, seamlessly. we just released v1.4 with all kind of new features, check it out: https://github.com/twosigma/beaker-notebook/releases/tag/1.4.1 https://github.com/twosigma/beaker-notebook/releases/tag/1.4...
- mbreese 11y ago
  FYI - I tried one of the Mac all in one downloads, and it looks promising. However, all I get are status messages saying that it is waiting for Python or R to initialize...
  - spot 11y ago
    Thanks. We don't have an all-in-one download, you have to install Python or R separately. But if you already have them, it should just work if they are in your PATH, and that path is setup by .bash_profile? Did you install the required R packages? Do you have IPython (not just Python)? We can probably better debug this by email or as a github issue than in this forum.
    - mbreese 11y ago
      Sorry, I meant the Electron version...
      - spot 11y ago
        OK well it loads the backends the same way. Please raise by email or github.
- techdragon 11y ago
  I tried to install this the other day. I didn't get it working on my Linux machine, but you will definitely see some pull requests once I have time to fiddle with it. The electron version is a nice idea but I would prefer better instructions for installing the normal version. "This script will do it all" is not always helpful.
jbssm 11y ago
Well, for scientists wanting to publish, GGplot it's quite unpractical. Most of the time we have to publish in B&W magazines and GGPlot simply lacks the capabilities to do so properly (por instance B&W filling patterns). Matplotlib with some good definitions ends up providing much better results and nicer looking plots fro B&W unlike what people normally think.
- pvaldes 11y ago
  ... and I remembered why I don't use ggplot at all, thanks. After lots and lots of plots done with R, I was starting to feel a bit weird reading the comments.

by mbreese 11y ago

halflings 11y ago

R has pandas/numpy/scipy integrated in the language (for the most used features at least), but that doesn't make much of a difference because any person that wants to use these tools will do a quick "pip install" to grab them. (which is pretty fast with the new Wheels system) Out of curiosity, why do you consider CRAN to be much better than PyPI?

mbreese 11y ago
I'm only thinking about CRAN > PyPI in terms of statistical packages. CRAN is where new statistical analysis techniques / packages are initially published. If you're lucky they might get ported to Python after the fact. I didn't even mention Bioconductor, which is another beast entirely. There isn't an equivalent of Bioconductor for Python at all. And the last time I checked, "pip install numpy" could be quite a pain, especially if you needed to compile dependencies. Rstudio makes it ridiculously easy to install R and add packages. However - for all other types of packages, PyPI is obviously superior. The breadth of packages on PyPI is much better than CRAN. It about choosing the right tool for the job.
- sandGorgon 11y ago
  the best way to get the entire numpy/scipy/numba package is anaconda[1] [1] https://www.continuum.io/downloads https://www.continuum.io/downloads

nicolapede 11y ago

> And it's really hard to beat ggplot. To be honest, matplotlib seems a good contender to me (http://matplotlib.org/ http://matplotlib.org/). Also, what's wrong with comparing R to Pandas/Numpy ? They can only be used from within Python, right? Edit: just realised from another comment that Pandas/Numpy can be accessed from R, too.

mbreese 11y ago
> what's wrong with comparing R to Pandas/Numpy Absolutely nothing. I was referring to the article title that is was an R vs. Python comparison. Python is so much more in terms of a general purpose language than R is. Similarly, R is much more in terms of stats (built-in) than Python. I just thought that it would be more accurate to call the article an R vs. Pandas/NumPy comparison. Even though both of them need an extra plotting library to make publication quality plots. Matplotlib isn't bad by any means - and it's gotten better over the years. But R/ggplot2 produces nicer plots (IMO). I'm not sure that I'd export data from Python into R just for ggplot, but I might.
- nicolapede 11y ago
  Thanks for the clarification. I am sorry I had got your comment in the wrong way. I am not that familiar with ggplot myself, but I'll give it a go as soon as I'll have the chance.
6502nerdface 11y ago
> > And it's really hard to beat ggplot. > To be honest, matplotlib seems a good contender to me (http://matplotlib.org/ http://matplotlib.org/). They're quite different, though, and I can see why many prefer ggplot. It's a declarative, domain-specific language that implements a Tufte-inspired "grammar of graphics" (hence the gg- in the name; see section 1.3 of [1], and [2,3]) for very fast and convenient interactive plotting, whereas matplotlib is just a clone of MATLIB's procedural plotting API. [1] http://www.amazon.com/ggplot2-Elegant-Graphics-Data-Analysis/dp/0387981403 http://www.amazon.com/ggplot2-Elegant-Graphics-Data-Analysis... [2] http://www.amazon.com/The-Grammar-Graphics-Statistics-Computing/dp/0387245448 http://www.amazon.com/The-Grammar-Graphics-Statistics-Comput... [3] http://vita.had.co.nz/papers/layered-grammar.html http://vita.had.co.nz/papers/layered-grammar.html

dewarrn1 11y ago

Happily, a Python port of ggplot is underway [0], although it's still very much a work in progress. [0] https://github.com/yhat/ggplot/ https://github.com/yhat/ggplot/

stared 11y ago
...with stalled progress. Right now I rather inline R code (with %%R in IPython Notebook) and use the real ggplot2.
- tadlan 11y ago
  There's a dev branch that has been actively developed

cwyers 11y ago

> It's an R vs. Pandas/Numpy comparison. And yet, you go right on in the next sentence to make it a Python/Pandas/Numpy vs. R/everything in CRAN comparison. Libraries count.

scott_s 11y ago
mbreese's point was not that that is wrong or misguided, just that it was happening.

spot 11y ago

totally agree and that's why we made Beaker: http://beakernotebook.com/ http://beakernotebook.com/ you can code in multiple languages in your noteobook, and they can all communicate, making it easy to go from Python to R to JavaScript, seamlessly. we just released v1.4 with all kind of new features, check it out: https://github.com/twosigma/beaker-notebook/releases/tag/1.4.1 https://github.com/twosigma/beaker-notebook/releases/tag/1.4...

mbreese 11y ago
FYI - I tried one of the Mac all in one downloads, and it looks promising. However, all I get are status messages saying that it is waiting for Python or R to initialize...
- spot 11y ago
  Thanks. We don't have an all-in-one download, you have to install Python or R separately. But if you already have them, it should just work if they are in your PATH, and that path is setup by .bash_profile? Did you install the required R packages? Do you have IPython (not just Python)? We can probably better debug this by email or as a github issue than in this forum.
  - mbreese 11y ago
    Sorry, I meant the Electron version...
    - spot 11y ago
      OK well it loads the backends the same way. Please raise by email or github.
techdragon 11y ago
I tried to install this the other day. I didn't get it working on my Linux machine, but you will definitely see some pull requests once I have time to fiddle with it. The electron version is a nice idea but I would prefer better instructions for installing the normal version. "This script will do it all" is not always helpful.

jbssm 11y ago

Well, for scientists wanting to publish, GGplot it's quite unpractical. Most of the time we have to publish in B&W magazines and GGPlot simply lacks the capabilities to do so properly (por instance B&W filling patterns). Matplotlib with some good definitions ends up providing much better results and nicer looking plots fro B&W unlike what people normally think.

pvaldes 11y ago
... and I remembered why I don't use ggplot at all, thanks. After lots and lots of plots done with R, I was starting to feel a bit weird reading the comments.