5 ms·

> Not every concertgoer is convinced. “From a business-strategy perspective, it completely devalues the brand,” said Roderick Branch, a 39-year-old lawyer in Ch

> Not every concertgoer is convinced. “From a business-strategy perspective, it completely devalues the brand,” said Roderick Branch, a 39-year-old lawyer in Chicago who attends symphony-orchestra performances about once a week. The very idea, he said, is “akin to Mouton Rothschild using its wine to make and sell sangria.” Is it just me, or is this guy the epitome of snob/hipster? He goes weekly, probably because he's far above the entertainment choices of the Philistines around him, name-drops an expensive wine so he can denigrate a beverage he deems not classy enough. If too many people start showing up to these performances, he might have to find a more niche form of entertainment so he doesn't have to rub shoulders with the plebs. To be less snarky, I guess he's just saying he doesn't like it, so that's fine. Ultimately these groups are working to make some money and send whatever artistic message they choose (and they seem happy on both counts), not to satisfy one certain person in the audience. Some people act like "classic" things are inherently purer or even different than modern ones, but for example Shakespeare has vulgar jokes and was performed to earn money, just as modern entertainment has "baser" content and motivations. It doesn't mean both can't also teach us about timeless themes, the human condition, etc.

cicero 11y ago
It's not that classic things are inherently purer, but they are the best of the best. The classics survive over time while the bulk of their contemporaries are forgotten. Popular art is attractive because it's new, but after a while, most of it becomes tired. Only the best has a depth that people will appreciate many years from now, but it's impossible to judge if something will be a classic until you give it time to prove itself.
- scintill76 11y ago
  This is true and a fair point. You might say that even video games have been around long enough that we can start to name the "classics" (though we might judge more about the game than the music -- maybe this is like how some classical music we perform alone now, originated from opera etc.) On the other hand, the article does mention newer games like Halo and Mass Effect. So it would be more sensible to complain about hearing Mass Effect when you wanted Mozart.
zyxley 11y ago
The modern perception of "the brand" of the stereotypical classical symphony, with formal attire for performers and audience, completely silent audiences, etc, is the biggest reason that symphony attendance has been on a long, continual decline. It makes middle-class types who might otherwise like the music but don't want to get looked down on by snobs like Mr. Branch himself go elsewhere for their entertainment. Compare, for example, to the popularity of musicals. They operate under the same basic "spend a lot of money to sit your butt in a seat for two hours and listen to musicians perform" principle, but many musicals have intentionally aimed themselves at all kinds of audiences, like politically-conscious artists (Rent), middle-class white girls (Wicked), families with children (Lion King), twentysomethings worried about their futures (Avenue Q), people who are into furries (Cats), etc.
- lfischer 11y ago
  But Rent adapts an opera, La Bohème!
- janardanyri 11y ago
  Your note about the brand is so true that even their self-awareness lacks self-awareness, such as this note from the SF Symphony first-timer's guide: 6. What should I wear to a San Francisco Symphony concert? Contrary to what many people think, formal attire—such as tuxedos and evening gowns—is not required at Symphony concerts. In fact, most people only wear formal clothing to our Opening Gala. At our other concerts, most concertgoers wear business or cocktail attire.
  - Johnny_Brahms 11y ago
    Just wow.... It is really the other way around at other places. The orchestra in my town (my old employer before tinnitus ended my carreer) has a big image of the solo clarinettist in a quite out-doorsy clothing saying something about how you should come as you are and ignore the fact that the whole orchestra looks like penguins.
    - kuschku 11y ago
dcsommer 11y ago
The comparison of sangria versus Mouton Rothschild wine has nothing to do with "classic" versus "modern" and more to do with art appreciation versus entertainment. There is a rich tradition of art music appreciation that has grown in depth and nuance over centuries. This tradition and culture grew in respect and aesthetic value over time, yet today a smaller proportion of the population holds the same respect and aesthetic values. There is nothing wrong with being entertained by orchestral video game music, but to an initiate in the world of classical art music it is disappointing if listeners don't want to engage with orchestral music more beyond reliving their gaming experiences. There are so many more thoughts and feelings an orchestra can inspire in a listener if they invest in absorbing that tradition.
- ajuc 11y ago
  There is nothing wrong with being entertained by classical music, but to an initiate in the world of videogame music it is dissapointing if listeners don't want to engage with videogame music beyond reliving their classical experiences. There are so many more feelings an orchestra can inspire in a listener if they invest in absorbing that tradition. :) There is good music and bad music, genres are just sets of constraints, none is inherently better than other, what matters is how composer use them. Good chiptune can be a better art than mediocre classical piece. And I would argue more "non-classicaly-trained" people know classical music (even by accident), than the other way around. Everybody have heard Vivaldi, Mozart, Bach, and Strauss at some point in life. Most people never heard Flimbo Quest or Zelda soundtrack. In 100 years there will be people with PhDs arguing over the merits of classical SID chiptunes vs the Amiga era mods. PS if you're interested in trying something different I reccomend this presentation about chiptunes - it's interestnig and gives you some idea about the genre constraints and stylistic choices https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjcK5JFEFE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjcK5JFEFE
  - dcsommer 11y ago
    Are you saying that video game music has more to offer besides reliving gaming memories? I'm genuinely interested in what is offered. For art music, there are already tons of resources for learning how to appreciate it more deeply.
ckozlowski 11y ago
To add to this, the musicians are enjoying this as well. As time passes and games stay with us longer, the perceptions of them will change, just as Shakespeare has. Case in point: I was lingering around with a friend well after the "Music of Zelda" performance, when a group came out towards the parking lot. Struck up a conversation with them, and found they were all part of the NSO's flute section. One had built a harmonica into a Zelda NES cartridge, and brought that to the show with her, along with the Zelda t-shirt she was wearing under her suit. She grew up playing the same games.
saturdaysaint 11y ago
Some people act like "classic" things are inherently purer or even different than modern ones, but for example Shakespeare has vulgar jokes and was performed to earn money, just as modern entertainment has "baser" content and motivations. It doesn't mean both can't also teach us about timeless themes, the human condition, etc. Eh, I doubt that even this snob needs to be told that - opera (which was instrumental in the development of the forms that define the classical repertoire) is replete with sex, violence and bawdy humor and the giants of the repertoire are very colorful characters. My hunch is that his anxiety has more to do with the constant fear of "the new" in orchestra halls, where anything less than 100 years old is looked at suspiciously. As a nerd for all kinds of musical genres, including "classical", this kind of anxiety is evident just about everywhere in some shape or form - indie rock, metal, rap, country, etc, etc. Every genre is constantly changing and crossbreeding, and everywhere there are purists trying to hold on to their image of the genre and performance scene when they fell in love with it.
DanBC 11y ago
Haydn's Hashtags: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01mv2zh http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01mv2zh
dragontamer 11y ago
I think I can agree. A lot of video game music was created by people trained in classical music. The Nintendo themes, a lot of Square / Enix games, etc. etc. There are plenty of videogamers who take music damn seriously. The OC Remix guys are absolutely superb at what they do for example. For less of a "Classical" feel, there is MAGFest (Music and Gaming). In any case, you will find plenty of "serious" musicians trying to celebrate video games and music. I think that symphony orchestras have begun to realize how much video gamers enjoy music and are learning to merge the two fields. But Video Gamers have known this fact for many years already! Ultimately, I welcome our classical music brethren to the party.
loco5niner 11y ago
I can't decide whether he's more like Niles or Frasier.

cicero 11y ago

It's not that classic things are inherently purer, but they are the best of the best. The classics survive over time while the bulk of their contemporaries are forgotten. Popular art is attractive because it's new, but after a while, most of it becomes tired. Only the best has a depth that people will appreciate many years from now, but it's impossible to judge if something will be a classic until you give it time to prove itself.

scintill76 11y ago
This is true and a fair point. You might say that even video games have been around long enough that we can start to name the "classics" (though we might judge more about the game than the music -- maybe this is like how some classical music we perform alone now, originated from opera etc.) On the other hand, the article does mention newer games like Halo and Mass Effect. So it would be more sensible to complain about hearing Mass Effect when you wanted Mozart.

zyxley 11y ago

The modern perception of "the brand" of the stereotypical classical symphony, with formal attire for performers and audience, completely silent audiences, etc, is the biggest reason that symphony attendance has been on a long, continual decline. It makes middle-class types who might otherwise like the music but don't want to get looked down on by snobs like Mr. Branch himself go elsewhere for their entertainment. Compare, for example, to the popularity of musicals. They operate under the same basic "spend a lot of money to sit your butt in a seat for two hours and listen to musicians perform" principle, but many musicals have intentionally aimed themselves at all kinds of audiences, like politically-conscious artists (Rent), middle-class white girls (Wicked), families with children (Lion King), twentysomethings worried about their futures (Avenue Q), people who are into furries (Cats), etc.

lfischer 11y ago
But Rent adapts an opera, La Bohème!
janardanyri 11y ago
Your note about the brand is so true that even their self-awareness lacks self-awareness, such as this note from the SF Symphony first-timer's guide: 6. What should I wear to a San Francisco Symphony concert? Contrary to what many people think, formal attire—such as tuxedos and evening gowns—is not required at Symphony concerts. In fact, most people only wear formal clothing to our Opening Gala. At our other concerts, most concertgoers wear business or cocktail attire.
- Johnny_Brahms 11y ago
  Just wow.... It is really the other way around at other places. The orchestra in my town (my old employer before tinnitus ended my carreer) has a big image of the solo clarinettist in a quite out-doorsy clothing saying something about how you should come as you are and ignore the fact that the whole orchestra looks like penguins.
  - kuschku 11y ago

dcsommer 11y ago

The comparison of sangria versus Mouton Rothschild wine has nothing to do with "classic" versus "modern" and more to do with art appreciation versus entertainment. There is a rich tradition of art music appreciation that has grown in depth and nuance over centuries. This tradition and culture grew in respect and aesthetic value over time, yet today a smaller proportion of the population holds the same respect and aesthetic values. There is nothing wrong with being entertained by orchestral video game music, but to an initiate in the world of classical art music it is disappointing if listeners don't want to engage with orchestral music more beyond reliving their gaming experiences. There are so many more thoughts and feelings an orchestra can inspire in a listener if they invest in absorbing that tradition.

ajuc 11y ago
There is nothing wrong with being entertained by classical music, but to an initiate in the world of videogame music it is dissapointing if listeners don't want to engage with videogame music beyond reliving their classical experiences. There are so many more feelings an orchestra can inspire in a listener if they invest in absorbing that tradition. :) There is good music and bad music, genres are just sets of constraints, none is inherently better than other, what matters is how composer use them. Good chiptune can be a better art than mediocre classical piece. And I would argue more "non-classicaly-trained" people know classical music (even by accident), than the other way around. Everybody have heard Vivaldi, Mozart, Bach, and Strauss at some point in life. Most people never heard Flimbo Quest or Zelda soundtrack. In 100 years there will be people with PhDs arguing over the merits of classical SID chiptunes vs the Amiga era mods. PS if you're interested in trying something different I reccomend this presentation about chiptunes - it's interestnig and gives you some idea about the genre constraints and stylistic choices https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjcK5JFEFE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjcK5JFEFE
- dcsommer 11y ago
  Are you saying that video game music has more to offer besides reliving gaming memories? I'm genuinely interested in what is offered. For art music, there are already tons of resources for learning how to appreciate it more deeply.

ckozlowski 11y ago

To add to this, the musicians are enjoying this as well. As time passes and games stay with us longer, the perceptions of them will change, just as Shakespeare has. Case in point: I was lingering around with a friend well after the "Music of Zelda" performance, when a group came out towards the parking lot. Struck up a conversation with them, and found they were all part of the NSO's flute section. One had built a harmonica into a Zelda NES cartridge, and brought that to the show with her, along with the Zelda t-shirt she was wearing under her suit. She grew up playing the same games.

saturdaysaint 11y ago

Some people act like "classic" things are inherently purer or even different than modern ones, but for example Shakespeare has vulgar jokes and was performed to earn money, just as modern entertainment has "baser" content and motivations. It doesn't mean both can't also teach us about timeless themes, the human condition, etc. Eh, I doubt that even this snob needs to be told that - opera (which was instrumental in the development of the forms that define the classical repertoire) is replete with sex, violence and bawdy humor and the giants of the repertoire are very colorful characters. My hunch is that his anxiety has more to do with the constant fear of "the new" in orchestra halls, where anything less than 100 years old is looked at suspiciously. As a nerd for all kinds of musical genres, including "classical", this kind of anxiety is evident just about everywhere in some shape or form - indie rock, metal, rap, country, etc, etc. Every genre is constantly changing and crossbreeding, and everywhere there are purists trying to hold on to their image of the genre and performance scene when they fell in love with it.

DanBC 11y ago

Haydn's Hashtags: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01mv2zh http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01mv2zh

dragontamer 11y ago

I think I can agree. A lot of video game music was created by people trained in classical music. The Nintendo themes, a lot of Square / Enix games, etc. etc. There are plenty of videogamers who take music damn seriously. The OC Remix guys are absolutely superb at what they do for example. For less of a "Classical" feel, there is MAGFest (Music and Gaming). In any case, you will find plenty of "serious" musicians trying to celebrate video games and music. I think that symphony orchestras have begun to realize how much video gamers enjoy music and are learning to merge the two fields. But Video Gamers have known this fact for many years already! Ultimately, I welcome our classical music brethren to the party.

loco5niner 11y ago

I can't decide whether he's more like Niles or Frasier.