7 ms·

Note: this happened almost a month ago now. See these threads for the discussion on the new head maintainer: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/20

by nanny 11y ago

Note: this happened almost a month ago now. See these threads for the discussion on the new head maintainer: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-09/msg01108.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-09/msg01... https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/threads.html#00007 https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/threa...

Coffeewine 11y ago
I recognize that the role of head maintainer is in part a political one, but yow.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- espadrine 11y ago
  Snippet that I believe exemplifies what you mean (since it's a bit hidden): It would be wrong and harmful to give MacOS an "equal footing". Our goal is to replace nonfree systems (and nonfree software in general), not to enhance them. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00384.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...
  - amyjess 11y ago
    ...and attitudes like that just result in many people not using any free software at all, when they could instead be running free programs on a non-free platform.
    - catern 11y ago
      It's important to read the full context. All that snippet means is that the GNU Emacs maintainer should be fine with adding new features to Emacs that are not portable to non-free platforms like Windows and Mac OS X. That is a perfectly reasonable requirement: Non-free platforms shouldn't hold back free platforms, because portability is not the ultimate goal, creating the best free software possible is the ultimate goal.
      - nathanb 11y ago
        That's a very positive spin on the message. The way I read it is that developers and maintainers are encouraged to make Emacs work better on free than non-free platforms. This is, sadly, self-defeating. If Emacs were widely recognized as the best editor (or whatever of its myriad functions you use it for), "works best on GNU/Linux" could advance the cause of free software. As it stands, though, "only works well on GNU/Linux" instead just means that fewer people will be using it.
  - mfoy_ 11y ago
    I browsed through the email thread briefly and it looks like a lot of "political ideology vs technical purism" drama... Seems high stress. Looks like after some hearty back and forth it settled down: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00430.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00... Although it seems they ended up on an "agree to disagree" finale: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00543.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...
    - masklinn 11y ago
      > it looks like a lot of "political ideology vs technical purism" drama… That's pretty much the history of the FSF and the GNU projects considering they were created for political/ideological reasons (the Unix in "GNU's Not Unix" is nonfree/encumbered AT&T UNIX, and the ideological underpinnings are what allowed Linux to overtake BSD during "the troubles" of the early 90s). The pulls ideological and technical pulls have oft conflicted.
      - hga 11y ago
        the ideological underpinnings are what allowed Linux to overtake BSD during "the troubles" of the early 90s As I understood it, also to a degree witnessing it as it happened, this lawsuit spiked BSD at the critical period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_Laboratories,_Inc._v._Berkeley_Software_Design,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_Laboratories,_Inc..... It certainly took Linux a long time to get in the ballpark of quality that BSD started out with at the gate, including the standard TCP/IP stack most everyone used, including Microsoft (initially, at least).
        hga 11y ago
        Oops, HN cuts the canonical URL's last character, a period; try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_v._BSDI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_v._BSDI
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    Or https://lwn.net/Articles/629259/ https://lwn.net/Articles/629259/ , referencing the long-standing issues caused by forcing the use of GCC rather than LLVM (and trying to satisfy someone who doesn't understand why people need to process source code and ASTs for anything fancier than indentation and syntax highlighting).
    - chetanahuja 11y ago
      Holy shit. This is incredible. I love Emacs but it's so sad that the stewardship of this amazing piece of software is in the hands of someone who would rather keep the feature-set substandard because of vague fears that someone might steal the AST's from his precious GCC. I wonder what would be the problem with someone using libclang to generate the same AST information in a much more convenient fashion. Will it break the GPL in some way?
      - nanny 11y ago
        People can and do use libclang for AST info in the same manner that you're talking about: https://github.com/Sarcasm/irony-mode https://github.com/Sarcasm/irony-mode
        chetanahuja 11y ago
        Almost didn't click on that link because it looked like a joke link (Sarcasm and irony!!). Glad I did and found something new :-)
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    Stallman's had a long history of hating on Apple, up to and including organizing a GNU boycott of them back in the 90s.
    - pmoriarty 11y ago
      The more I learn about Stallman, the more I admire him.
tetraodonpuffer 11y ago
That was a very interesting and long discussion that you linked to in the second link, in this day and age it was quite refreshing to read an adult and polite debate where disagreements were discussed without resorting to name-calling and insults. Emacs being such an important part of the FSF it makes a lot of sense that its maintainer should be conscious of this fact and prioritize it accordingly, even if sometimes that means not making Emacs as good as it could be (see the clang/gcc discussion in the linked thread).
- taiar 11y ago
  Totally agreed. Rare thing nowadays...
- temo4ka 11y ago
  Heh, I like how Richard Stallman begins his messages: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00234.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...
  - x0x0 11y ago
    I dunno, I think that's some bullshit doublespeak right there. He conflates emacs and the gnu project, while claiming to want the best possible emacs. The GNU Emacs maintainer's responsibility is to take charge of Emacs on behalf of the GNU Project, and produce the best possible GNU Emacs -- which means, the one that advances our aim the most. [...] It includes making sure dynamic loading resists GPL violation. [1] Non bs would be to say, eg, "the task of our maintainer is to build the best emacs possible subject to the political goals of the gnu project." Note that I'm not sharing my opinion of whether this is good or bad; I just dislike bs. [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00234.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00... edit: I take it back; you're talking about the message to the NSA? I skipped over everything in brackets while reading...
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      I don't think you're justified in reading in your own definition of "best", when RMS defines it himself right there in your quote. If you're prepared to agree that the best possible chocolate mousse is probably "good" in ways that are incomparable to the best possible steam locomotive, then all you have in your comment here is misleading rhetoric. Kind of funny to then sign off with > I'm not sharing my opinion of whether this is good or bad; I just dislike bs
Myrmornis 11y ago
Stefan has always seemed fantastic. Thanks very much! The thread makes hilarious reading for those who don't care so much about the FSF's ideals. E.g. > The liberation effort of the soviets died from these kind of treatment.
shadeless 11y ago
My understanding from skimming those two links is: John Wiegley is considering/being considered for the head maintainer, but the decision hasn't been made yet. Is that correct?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- zdw 11y ago
  Looks like he withdrew himself from consideration (2nd reply paragraph): https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00141.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...
  - pmoriarty 11y ago
    Then he withdrew his withdrawal: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00404.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...

by nanny 11y ago

Coffeewine 11y ago

I recognize that the role of head maintainer is in part a political one, but yow.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
espadrine 11y ago
Snippet that I believe exemplifies what you mean (since it's a bit hidden): It would be wrong and harmful to give MacOS an "equal footing". Our goal is to replace nonfree systems (and nonfree software in general), not to enhance them. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00384.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...
- amyjess 11y ago
  ...and attitudes like that just result in many people not using any free software at all, when they could instead be running free programs on a non-free platform.
  - catern 11y ago
    It's important to read the full context. All that snippet means is that the GNU Emacs maintainer should be fine with adding new features to Emacs that are not portable to non-free platforms like Windows and Mac OS X. That is a perfectly reasonable requirement: Non-free platforms shouldn't hold back free platforms, because portability is not the ultimate goal, creating the best free software possible is the ultimate goal.
    - nathanb 11y ago
      That's a very positive spin on the message. The way I read it is that developers and maintainers are encouraged to make Emacs work better on free than non-free platforms. This is, sadly, self-defeating. If Emacs were widely recognized as the best editor (or whatever of its myriad functions you use it for), "works best on GNU/Linux" could advance the cause of free software. As it stands, though, "only works well on GNU/Linux" instead just means that fewer people will be using it.
- mfoy_ 11y ago
  I browsed through the email thread briefly and it looks like a lot of "political ideology vs technical purism" drama... Seems high stress. Looks like after some hearty back and forth it settled down: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00430.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00... Although it seems they ended up on an "agree to disagree" finale: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00543.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...
  - masklinn 11y ago
    > it looks like a lot of "political ideology vs technical purism" drama… That's pretty much the history of the FSF and the GNU projects considering they were created for political/ideological reasons (the Unix in "GNU's Not Unix" is nonfree/encumbered AT&T UNIX, and the ideological underpinnings are what allowed Linux to overtake BSD during "the troubles" of the early 90s). The pulls ideological and technical pulls have oft conflicted.
    - hga 11y ago
      the ideological underpinnings are what allowed Linux to overtake BSD during "the troubles" of the early 90s As I understood it, also to a degree witnessing it as it happened, this lawsuit spiked BSD at the critical period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_Laboratories,_Inc._v._Berkeley_Software_Design,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_Laboratories,_Inc..... It certainly took Linux a long time to get in the ballpark of quality that BSD started out with at the gate, including the standard TCP/IP stack most everyone used, including Microsoft (initially, at least).
      - hga 11y ago
        Oops, HN cuts the canonical URL's last character, a period; try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_v._BSDI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_v._BSDI
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  Or https://lwn.net/Articles/629259/ https://lwn.net/Articles/629259/ , referencing the long-standing issues caused by forcing the use of GCC rather than LLVM (and trying to satisfy someone who doesn't understand why people need to process source code and ASTs for anything fancier than indentation and syntax highlighting).
  - chetanahuja 11y ago
    Holy shit. This is incredible. I love Emacs but it's so sad that the stewardship of this amazing piece of software is in the hands of someone who would rather keep the feature-set substandard because of vague fears that someone might steal the AST's from his precious GCC. I wonder what would be the problem with someone using libclang to generate the same AST information in a much more convenient fashion. Will it break the GPL in some way?
    - nanny 11y ago
      People can and do use libclang for AST info in the same manner that you're talking about: https://github.com/Sarcasm/irony-mode https://github.com/Sarcasm/irony-mode
      - chetanahuja 11y ago
        Almost didn't click on that link because it looked like a joke link (Sarcasm and irony!!). Glad I did and found something new :-)
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Stallman's had a long history of hating on Apple, up to and including organizing a GNU boycott of them back in the 90s.
  - pmoriarty 11y ago
    The more I learn about Stallman, the more I admire him.

tetraodonpuffer 11y ago

That was a very interesting and long discussion that you linked to in the second link, in this day and age it was quite refreshing to read an adult and polite debate where disagreements were discussed without resorting to name-calling and insults. Emacs being such an important part of the FSF it makes a lot of sense that its maintainer should be conscious of this fact and prioritize it accordingly, even if sometimes that means not making Emacs as good as it could be (see the clang/gcc discussion in the linked thread).

taiar 11y ago
Totally agreed. Rare thing nowadays...
temo4ka 11y ago
Heh, I like how Richard Stallman begins his messages: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00234.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...
- x0x0 11y ago
  I dunno, I think that's some bullshit doublespeak right there. He conflates emacs and the gnu project, while claiming to want the best possible emacs. The GNU Emacs maintainer's responsibility is to take charge of Emacs on behalf of the GNU Project, and produce the best possible GNU Emacs -- which means, the one that advances our aim the most. [...] It includes making sure dynamic loading resists GPL violation. [1] Non bs would be to say, eg, "the task of our maintainer is to build the best emacs possible subject to the political goals of the gnu project." Note that I'm not sharing my opinion of whether this is good or bad; I just dislike bs. [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00234.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00... edit: I take it back; you're talking about the message to the NSA? I skipped over everything in brackets while reading...
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    I don't think you're justified in reading in your own definition of "best", when RMS defines it himself right there in your quote. If you're prepared to agree that the best possible chocolate mousse is probably "good" in ways that are incomparable to the best possible steam locomotive, then all you have in your comment here is misleading rhetoric. Kind of funny to then sign off with > I'm not sharing my opinion of whether this is good or bad; I just dislike bs

Myrmornis 11y ago

Stefan has always seemed fantastic. Thanks very much! The thread makes hilarious reading for those who don't care so much about the FSF's ideals. E.g. > The liberation effort of the soviets died from these kind of treatment.

shadeless 11y ago

My understanding from skimming those two links is: John Wiegley is considering/being considered for the head maintainer, but the decision hasn't been made yet. Is that correct?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
zdw 11y ago
Looks like he withdrew himself from consideration (2nd reply paragraph): https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00141.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...
- pmoriarty 11y ago
  Then he withdrew his withdrawal: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00404.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg00...