7 ms·

I agree that student loan debt seems like an asset bubble -- in that the price of an education greatly exceeds the valuation justified by the fundamentals. But

I agree that student loan debt seems like an asset bubble -- in that the price of an education greatly exceeds the valuation justified by the fundamentals. But I can't think of a way that the bubble could actually pop. Or what it would look like if it did. Unlike housing, you can't walk away from your education; student loans are designed to prevent debtors from ever escaping their obligations. They're also guaranteed by the federal government, which has seemingly infinite resources. Educational institutions themselves are also either private, or are state-run, both of which would shield the impacts of a collapse from the average citizen. The average citizen isn't invested in education like they were in public tech companies or housing. It's also impossible to short Harvard or the UC system. I actually think this is worse in some ways. Bubble pops are scary, but the bandaid comes off quickly. Instead I fear educational indebtedness will just be a silent vampire on our economy for decades to come.

lisper 11y ago
> But I can't think of a way that the bubble could actually pop. Or what it would look like if it did. It would look like a social movement. It would look like tens of millions of young people realizing that they have fallen under the yoke of life-long indentured servitude to the older generation, and either 1) getting organized enough to get the law changed or, 2) saying "fuck it, I've got nothing left to lose" and rioting in the streets.
- learc83 11y ago
  For federal student loans, there isn't a life of indentured servitude. There are income based repayment plans that with fairly low costs per month. A single guy working at starbucks making 30k per year would only pay about $100 per month even with a 200k loan (if he had a wife and kid, he'd pay nothing). Then after 20 years the rest is forgiven.
  - zardo 11y ago
    In year 20 he pays income tax on the forgiven amount. He'd better be saving up for that.
    - learc83 11y ago
      That's never going to happen. Too many people are affected for congress not to act before the tax bill comes due. The economic effects are too large for them to ignore.
      - s73v3r 11y ago
        Much like the economic effects of not passing a budget, or the economic effects of a temporary government shutdown for petty reasons?
        learc83 11y ago
        Most people don't really care about government shutdowns because it doesn't directly cost most people much money. And, even then you'll notice the government never stays shutdown. If government shutdowns meant a huge chunk of the voting population (across both parties) was suddenly going to owe thousands of dollars in extra taxes, you can bet they'd never happen.
  - macNchz 11y ago
    That system exemplifies what seems to be a growing issue these days–people with too little income get programs like that to help them squeeze by, people making lots of money pay them back without a problem, and the people in between kind of float along paying enough monthly that they put off buying a house or having kids or starting a business because they have 10+ years of loan payments. The long term outcome of this doesn't seen like a healthy society to me.
  - draw_down 11y ago
    A lot of the loans that people hold are not federal loans.
    - learc83 11y ago
      There's about $1.2 trillion in outstanding student loans. $1 trillion of that is in federal student loans.
- cryoshon 11y ago
  We would do well to mobilize people to either #1 or #2, since both would create change. The trick is convincing people that they're getting screwed over by something that can be changed. Most just accept it as a way of life.
- morgante 11y ago
  > It would look like tens of millions of young people realizing that they have fallen under the yoke of life-long indentured servitude to the older generation Nobody forced them to take out loans. There are lots of options which don't involve crushing debt.
  - fluxquanta 11y ago
    When I was graduating high school student loan debt was something I was encouraged to take on, despite my on uneasiness about doing so. My teachers, my family, everyone whose opinion I was supposed to respect told me that student loan debt was normal and even valuable (to build credit). So while no, I wasn't FORCED to take out loans, the most trustworthy people in my life taught me that loans were okay, and never presented me with another option. Luckily this paradigm is showing signs of a shift, but for a lot people it's still considered "normal".
  - Nicholas_C 11y ago
    >Nobody forced them to take out loans. No, but many people feel misled about the post-graduation prospects or are unhappy with their life options and feel trapped in a career they hate and can't take a break from or change due to debt.
  - drabiega 11y ago
    Could you elaborate?
    - morgante 11y ago
      On which part? That there aren't roving bandits forcing people to take on huge loans? Or that there are other options? In terms of other options, there is (a) community college—very cheap, (b) state school—much cheaper usually, especially if you live at home, (c) attending a slightly less prestigious college when they offer a substantial merit scholarship.
  - s73v3r 11y ago
    Like what? Long gone are the days in which one could put themselves through school with a part time job.
- hiram112 11y ago
  The government will eventually realize that the defaulted loans, together with penalties and fees, can never be paid back - no different than the typical house flippers of 2008 who leveraged themselves to the hilt with multiple properties. The banks and funds that own these defaulted loans will threaten to take down the whole system, including Main Street's pension and IRA savings, unless they're bailed out. The Fed's printing machine will come to the rescue. Loans won't be 'forgiven' per se, but just like many defaulted mortgages, the debt will simply not be enforced for those that have the balls to simply stop paying, though life will be a PITA for a while as their credit takes a huge hit for the next decade. Those that do continue to pay will feel like suckers. The rest of us will curse the lazy bums who got off without paying. Wall Street execs will be handsomely rewarded for having saved their firms from catastrophe, while politicians will preach of reform, only to pass watered-down laws to appear proactive. Due to the money printing, the average American will see his quality of life decrease relative to the rest of the world; meanwhile, Wall Street will begin moving money into the next hot idea that can be leveraged with no risk to themselves.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    > The government will eventually realize that the defaulted loans, together with penalties and fees, can never be paid back - no different than the typical house flippers of 2008 who leveraged themselves to the hilt with multiple properties. Yes, but the question is if they'll care. Many people believe it morally important to enforce the unenforceable.
- FrankenPC 11y ago
  Makes me wonder if there's already some form of credit default swapping going on with student loans that we won't uncover until after the bubble pops.
  - andy_boot 11y ago
    I recall a story of a company that was analysing student loans, finding people most likely to pay the loan off and buying that debt. So yes I expect there are already student credit default swaps somewhere.
SixSigma 11y ago
These are both the same people but maybe the bubble bursting sounds like this : A dangerous revolt: People are refusing to pay back student loans [1] America’s student loan boycott: How 15 students took on the government — and just may win [2] [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2015/02/25/a-dangerous-revolt-people-are-refusing-to-pay-back-student-loans/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2015/02/25/a... [2] http://www.salon.com/2015/03/03/student_loan_fraud_factory_how_15_students_took_on_arne_duncan_and_refused_to_repay_their_debt/ http://www.salon.com/2015/03/03/student_loan_fraud_factory_h...
ap22213 11y ago
Back around 2000, when I saw education costs rising (and was a big believer in market forces), I figured more educators would enter the market, and things would stabilize. It's been 15 years, and I haven't seen any new colleges or universities formed. What happened?
- cgearhart 11y ago
  The market did accommodate it. Lots of for-profit schools (Wyotech, Heald, etc.) popped up and made a killing largely by helping students fill out loan paperwork for the maximum allowable amount while providing a dubious credential without meeting the standards of reputable accreditation boards. The credits were not transferrable in most cases, and many of the schools have been shuttered for charges bordering on fraud. (A friend from HS owes more on loans for 18 months at Heald than I owed from a 4-year degree at a state school.)
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  Udemy etc and the tutorial market are booming. Universities in countries with inflated fees and tuition loans are about to fall off a cliff. I'll be surprised if they're still around a generation from now. The Ivy League will survive because of social and political momentum. But colleges outside the prestige circuit are going to have real problems getting students for high-cost low-return education.
  - Apocryphon 11y ago
    Credentialism in industry will still be a problem. But hopefully employers are starting to combat that: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/29/in-the-u-k-deloitte-is-hiding-college-degrees-from-its-applicants-resumes/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09...
  - xrange 11y ago
    >The Ivy League will survive because of social and political momentum. ...and their endowments in $10-40 billion range: http://www.ibtimes.com/ivy-league-endowments-2015-princeton-university-top-harvard-struggles-low-investment-2131005 http://www.ibtimes.com/ivy-league-endowments-2015-princeton-...
FrankenPC 11y ago
>They're also guaranteed by the federal government, which has seemingly infinite resources. IMO That resource is GDP. If American's can't find meaningful work that has financial value not just domestically, but internationally, we'll see how much of that resource is left after a few decades. Or more accurately, we'll see a VERY tiny percentage of Americans with vast wealth and the majority struggling for subsistence because the government has essentially been deactivated due to lack of funds.
- chillwaves 11y ago
  If America runs out of money, they will just print more. If their creditors call out their loans, America is very happy to pay them off: in US dollars.
  - FrankenPC 11y ago
    At some point China will stop believing in the value of US bonds.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> But I can't think of a way that the bubble could actually pop. Or what it would look like if it did. It would look a lot like the retrenchment of the private for-profit college industry when private lending outside of government guaranteed programs collapsed with the 2008-2009 financial collapse, only hitting all of higher education, and the real-estate markets buoyed by universities, and the communities and industries supporting higher-education generally. And it could happen with the stroke of a pen -- the federal government just cancels direct and subsidized loan programs.
curun1r 11y ago
Hopefully the bubble popping looks like University of Phoenix and its for-profit brethren going out of business. The looming student loan crisis has been reported for a while, but what's more recently been reported is just how large a percentage of it is these for-profit schools. We hear scary numbers and naturally associate them with expensive private school educations from the ivy schools or similar institutions. But there's really no crisis there...people graduating from an ivy league school will almost certainly pay off their loans, large as they might be. The bulk of the defaults will come from people who've gotten largely-meaningless degrees from those for-profit schools. It's sad, but job screening skills are so bad in most industries that they basically just use the college admission screening process as a proxy. And the fact that basically anyone can get into the University of Phoenix means that there's almost no value placed on having graduated from there.

lisper 11y ago

> But I can't think of a way that the bubble could actually pop. Or what it would look like if it did. It would look like a social movement. It would look like tens of millions of young people realizing that they have fallen under the yoke of life-long indentured servitude to the older generation, and either 1) getting organized enough to get the law changed or, 2) saying "fuck it, I've got nothing left to lose" and rioting in the streets.

learc83 11y ago
For federal student loans, there isn't a life of indentured servitude. There are income based repayment plans that with fairly low costs per month. A single guy working at starbucks making 30k per year would only pay about $100 per month even with a 200k loan (if he had a wife and kid, he'd pay nothing). Then after 20 years the rest is forgiven.
- zardo 11y ago
  In year 20 he pays income tax on the forgiven amount. He'd better be saving up for that.
  - learc83 11y ago
    That's never going to happen. Too many people are affected for congress not to act before the tax bill comes due. The economic effects are too large for them to ignore.
    - s73v3r 11y ago
      Much like the economic effects of not passing a budget, or the economic effects of a temporary government shutdown for petty reasons?
      - learc83 11y ago
        Most people don't really care about government shutdowns because it doesn't directly cost most people much money. And, even then you'll notice the government never stays shutdown. If government shutdowns meant a huge chunk of the voting population (across both parties) was suddenly going to owe thousands of dollars in extra taxes, you can bet they'd never happen.
- macNchz 11y ago
  That system exemplifies what seems to be a growing issue these days–people with too little income get programs like that to help them squeeze by, people making lots of money pay them back without a problem, and the people in between kind of float along paying enough monthly that they put off buying a house or having kids or starting a business because they have 10+ years of loan payments. The long term outcome of this doesn't seen like a healthy society to me.
- draw_down 11y ago
  A lot of the loans that people hold are not federal loans.
  - learc83 11y ago
    There's about $1.2 trillion in outstanding student loans. $1 trillion of that is in federal student loans.
cryoshon 11y ago
We would do well to mobilize people to either #1 or #2, since both would create change. The trick is convincing people that they're getting screwed over by something that can be changed. Most just accept it as a way of life.
morgante 11y ago
> It would look like tens of millions of young people realizing that they have fallen under the yoke of life-long indentured servitude to the older generation Nobody forced them to take out loans. There are lots of options which don't involve crushing debt.
- fluxquanta 11y ago
  When I was graduating high school student loan debt was something I was encouraged to take on, despite my on uneasiness about doing so. My teachers, my family, everyone whose opinion I was supposed to respect told me that student loan debt was normal and even valuable (to build credit). So while no, I wasn't FORCED to take out loans, the most trustworthy people in my life taught me that loans were okay, and never presented me with another option. Luckily this paradigm is showing signs of a shift, but for a lot people it's still considered "normal".
- Nicholas_C 11y ago
  >Nobody forced them to take out loans. No, but many people feel misled about the post-graduation prospects or are unhappy with their life options and feel trapped in a career they hate and can't take a break from or change due to debt.
- drabiega 11y ago
  Could you elaborate?
  - morgante 11y ago
    On which part? That there aren't roving bandits forcing people to take on huge loans? Or that there are other options? In terms of other options, there is (a) community college—very cheap, (b) state school—much cheaper usually, especially if you live at home, (c) attending a slightly less prestigious college when they offer a substantial merit scholarship.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  Like what? Long gone are the days in which one could put themselves through school with a part time job.
hiram112 11y ago
The government will eventually realize that the defaulted loans, together with penalties and fees, can never be paid back - no different than the typical house flippers of 2008 who leveraged themselves to the hilt with multiple properties. The banks and funds that own these defaulted loans will threaten to take down the whole system, including Main Street's pension and IRA savings, unless they're bailed out. The Fed's printing machine will come to the rescue. Loans won't be 'forgiven' per se, but just like many defaulted mortgages, the debt will simply not be enforced for those that have the balls to simply stop paying, though life will be a PITA for a while as their credit takes a huge hit for the next decade. Those that do continue to pay will feel like suckers. The rest of us will curse the lazy bums who got off without paying. Wall Street execs will be handsomely rewarded for having saved their firms from catastrophe, while politicians will preach of reform, only to pass watered-down laws to appear proactive. Due to the money printing, the average American will see his quality of life decrease relative to the rest of the world; meanwhile, Wall Street will begin moving money into the next hot idea that can be leveraged with no risk to themselves.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  > The government will eventually realize that the defaulted loans, together with penalties and fees, can never be paid back - no different than the typical house flippers of 2008 who leveraged themselves to the hilt with multiple properties. Yes, but the question is if they'll care. Many people believe it morally important to enforce the unenforceable.
FrankenPC 11y ago
Makes me wonder if there's already some form of credit default swapping going on with student loans that we won't uncover until after the bubble pops.
- andy_boot 11y ago
  I recall a story of a company that was analysing student loans, finding people most likely to pay the loan off and buying that debt. So yes I expect there are already student credit default swaps somewhere.

SixSigma 11y ago

These are both the same people but maybe the bubble bursting sounds like this : A dangerous revolt: People are refusing to pay back student loans [1] America’s student loan boycott: How 15 students took on the government — and just may win [2] [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2015/02/25/a-dangerous-revolt-people-are-refusing-to-pay-back-student-loans/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2015/02/25/a... [2] http://www.salon.com/2015/03/03/student_loan_fraud_factory_how_15_students_took_on_arne_duncan_and_refused_to_repay_their_debt/ http://www.salon.com/2015/03/03/student_loan_fraud_factory_h...

ap22213 11y ago

Back around 2000, when I saw education costs rising (and was a big believer in market forces), I figured more educators would enter the market, and things would stabilize. It's been 15 years, and I haven't seen any new colleges or universities formed. What happened?

cgearhart 11y ago
The market did accommodate it. Lots of for-profit schools (Wyotech, Heald, etc.) popped up and made a killing largely by helping students fill out loan paperwork for the maximum allowable amount while providing a dubious credential without meeting the standards of reputable accreditation boards. The credits were not transferrable in most cases, and many of the schools have been shuttered for charges bordering on fraud. (A friend from HS owes more on loans for 18 months at Heald than I owed from a 4-year degree at a state school.)
TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
Udemy etc and the tutorial market are booming. Universities in countries with inflated fees and tuition loans are about to fall off a cliff. I'll be surprised if they're still around a generation from now. The Ivy League will survive because of social and political momentum. But colleges outside the prestige circuit are going to have real problems getting students for high-cost low-return education.
- Apocryphon 11y ago
  Credentialism in industry will still be a problem. But hopefully employers are starting to combat that: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/29/in-the-u-k-deloitte-is-hiding-college-degrees-from-its-applicants-resumes/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09...
- xrange 11y ago
  >The Ivy League will survive because of social and political momentum. ...and their endowments in $10-40 billion range: http://www.ibtimes.com/ivy-league-endowments-2015-princeton-university-top-harvard-struggles-low-investment-2131005 http://www.ibtimes.com/ivy-league-endowments-2015-princeton-...

FrankenPC 11y ago

>They're also guaranteed by the federal government, which has seemingly infinite resources. IMO That resource is GDP. If American's can't find meaningful work that has financial value not just domestically, but internationally, we'll see how much of that resource is left after a few decades. Or more accurately, we'll see a VERY tiny percentage of Americans with vast wealth and the majority struggling for subsistence because the government has essentially been deactivated due to lack of funds.

chillwaves 11y ago
If America runs out of money, they will just print more. If their creditors call out their loans, America is very happy to pay them off: in US dollars.
- FrankenPC 11y ago
  At some point China will stop believing in the value of US bonds.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> But I can't think of a way that the bubble could actually pop. Or what it would look like if it did. It would look a lot like the retrenchment of the private for-profit college industry when private lending outside of government guaranteed programs collapsed with the 2008-2009 financial collapse, only hitting all of higher education, and the real-estate markets buoyed by universities, and the communities and industries supporting higher-education generally. And it could happen with the stroke of a pen -- the federal government just cancels direct and subsidized loan programs.

curun1r 11y ago

Hopefully the bubble popping looks like University of Phoenix and its for-profit brethren going out of business. The looming student loan crisis has been reported for a while, but what's more recently been reported is just how large a percentage of it is these for-profit schools. We hear scary numbers and naturally associate them with expensive private school educations from the ivy schools or similar institutions. But there's really no crisis there...people graduating from an ivy league school will almost certainly pay off their loans, large as they might be. The bulk of the defaults will come from people who've gotten largely-meaningless degrees from those for-profit schools. It's sad, but job screening skills are so bad in most industries that they basically just use the college admission screening process as a proxy. And the fact that basically anyone can get into the University of Phoenix means that there's almost no value placed on having graduated from there.