5 ms·

For me, this misses the point of Docker. These days, production and dev environments are extremely heterogenous. We're already running a database written in C,

by curun1r 11y ago

For me, this misses the point of Docker. These days, production and dev environments are extremely heterogenous. We're already running a database written in C, a messaging queue written in a JVM language and a front-end API written in Node and all while serving our static assets from a generic web server. And we're starting to explore Go and Rust for more specialized components. Docker allows me to abstract away all the platform-specific issues and treat all my infrastructure components as if they're homogenous. Docker compose can bring up my entire dev stack. Docker swarm or any of the other orchestration services (ECS, Kubernetes, Nomad, Fleet, etc) can manage my entire production deployment. A JVM-specific option is really a step backwards. Using that, I'd now have to go back to treating my JVM components differently from everything else. The whole point of Docker, for me, is that none of my diverse infrastructure components needs special consideration.

pron 11y ago
I work on Capsule. It's not about philosophy but pragmatism. Most organizations are mostly Java, and even if Java doesn't make up 90% of the components, it makes up 90% of the deployments because that's what the core business software uses. Such organizations get to use a a rather crude tool that takes away some of the power of their technology stack. Why not use a slimmer, faster, less-hassle tool for the majority of your deploys? And if we want to talk philosophy, Docker really mixes two separate issues -- portable packaging and isolation. Capsule separates them. If you want, you can launch a capsule inside a Docker container. If you want, you can directly launch it in a more convenient container simply by launching it with Shield (or outside a container by running it directly). As Shield will be open-container-compatible, there's no reason why Docker and Shield shouldn't play together. And remember, Capsule requires zero additional tools on top of what developers use anyway (it's just a plain Maven Central library that you stick in your JAR with your build tool).
- carlosdp 11y ago
  Even if 90% of deployments are on JVM, that's 10% of deployments that you have to somehow treat differently. Docker is designed to take away this concern, just treat everything as units that need to be deployed on boxes.
  - pron 11y ago
    So you want 100% of your deploys to be slower and less convenient than they need be just because you need to use another tool for 10% of them (and mostly for code that wasn't even written in the organization, so those images might not even need to be maintained by the organization)? I'd understand if you'd want to do that for a 50-50 mix, but not 90-10. Also, remember that Capsule doesn't add another build step. You need to create JARs anyway, so you might as well make them capsules. You then either have the option of adding another step of building Docker images (just because you have some other Docker containers, most of them not even built by you) or not. Capsule just saves you that extra step and still lets you isolate your app in a container if you want, while making everything faster and management+logging easier. I don't think the need/wish to use containers for isolation should dictate your packaging solution.
    - mwcampbell 11y ago
      What makes Docker-based deploys of JVM applications slower than Capsule-based deploys? All of an organization's Docker images for JVM applications would probably be based on the same base image, so there's no waste there.
      - pron 11y ago
        Because you still need the extra step of creating the images (and layering them carefully if you want them to share dependencies other than the JVM). To run a capsule inside a container (if you want to run it in a container), you just tell Shield to launch the capsule JAR (which is created anyway by the build). In fact, you can even embed Shield itself in the capsule.
    - carlosdp 11y ago
      Docker is incredibly good at caching, the assumption that Docker is slow is incorrect. The first time you build or pull an image on a machine, it might take a few to get the base images, but past that it is lightning fast, and it works the same for any language and any stack. For most companies that operate several services, having one trusted and strong way to deploy and orchestrate is way more important than an occasional load/build time when working on a new laptop / instance. Edit: I'm not saying Capsule isn't useful, it just doesn't make any sense to say it compares to Docker, because the use-case is quite different in reality.
- federico3 11y ago
  > Most organizations are mostly Java ...quite a bold statement. Can you cite some sources?
  - pron 11y ago
    Sure. Estimates are that 90% of Fortune 500 companies use Java[1], and Java dominates job offering by a wide margin[2]: "its stranglehold on modern development is unshakable." The #2 platform is, unsurprisingly .Net. If you concentrate on non-Windows platforms you see that Java easily constitutes a majority. Note that what I said is adjusted by size: fledgling companies prefer quicker development. [1]: http://www.zipcodewilmington.com/blog/why-java-skills-matter-now-and-in-the-future/ http://www.zipcodewilmington.com/blog/why-java-skills-matter... [2]: http://www.infoworld.com/article/2868654/it-jobs/java-developers-hot-job-market.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2868654/it-jobs/java-develo..., http://www.infoworld.com/article/2608294/java/employers-want-java-skills-more-than-anything-else.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2608294/java/employers-want...
- curun1r 11y ago
  You live in a much more Java-centric world than I do. Your world seems similar to the one I inhabited for well over a decade (I wrote Java code professionally from 1997-2012), but with the rise of microservices, I'm seeing almost no interest in creating any new Java code. The JVM isn't going away...there's plenty of Scala and even some Clojure. But there's also a move towards newer platforms like Node and Go. And there's even been a rediscovery of platforms like Ruby and Python when the performance penalty doesn't come into play. Docker enables everything to play nicely together. Capsule seems to double down on the old, monoculture way of developing. For people that want to do that, I'm sure your solution is an excellent product. But my own perspective, which may be skewed by being in the bay area, is that those people are the minority, not the majority.
  - pron 11y ago
    > there's plenty of Scala and even some Clojure. But there's also a move towards newer platforms like Node and Go. And there's even been a rediscovery of platforms like Ruby and Python when the performance penalty doesn't come into play. I won't say what you're saying isn't real, but it is happening on a completely different scale than the size of the Java ecosystem. Even on the JVM, what you see as "plenty of Scala" doesn't even amount to 5% -- not that it matters, but it's just an example of why I think your view is skewed. The size of the Go ecosystem is hardly 1% of that of the JVM (rough estimate), and while Node.js/Python are "a thing" (and are the only languages/platforms of those you mentioned that are used to a substantial amount outside of startups), they are still tiny compared to the use of the JVM. Even in Silicon Valley (which is in itself a very small portion of the software world), the large "webby" application companies (with the notable exception of Facebook) are JVM shops: Amazon, Google, eBay, Twitter, Netflix are either entirely JVM or predominantly JVM, and even Facebook is making growing use of the Java. Most of the shifts you're seeing is among non-JVM technologies. It's mostly Pythonists that switch to Go and Rubyists that switch to Elixir/Node.js, etc.. The JVM was never the biggest player in the "fast application development" arena -- at the beginning there was VB, and then Perl, and then Python/Ruby and so forth. I see no signs that there is greater movement away from the JVM -- mostly among those who realize they're better served by the "fast dev" platforms even at the cost of performance -- than towards it -- by those realizing they need the best the industry can offer in terms of performance/monitorability/tooling even at the cost of slower development.
solofounder2 11y ago
I think enormous sprawling enterprises who's infrastructure has evolved over decades really need something like docker in order to consolidate what used to feel like a tangled mass of different tech. For that use case docker probably saves top firms a ton of money by reducing overall complexity in their operations. However for early stage web startups especially ones that use the JVM there are only really likely to be a handful of diverse technologies in play. A typical example: nginx, jruby, redis, kafka, <primary persistence tech goes here>. Now at first glance you might look at this and see 5 diverse systems and think "these guys could probably benefit from docker", and perhaps some could, but I personally think that a growing number of shops feel like it's a waste of time and resources, and here is why: Although there are five separate systems in the example above the truth is that developers are not sitting around writing nginx config files all day, nor kafka config, nor redis config, nor Mysql config files. Those are things that you only have to setup correctly once and then you only change gradually, a few lines here and there over the lifetime of the business until you settle in on the most optimized configuration for your workload. 99.9% of your team's changes will only touch the "application layer" which in this example resides on a single runtime environment (the JVM). Teams who utilize the JVM in this way usually don't feel "pinned in" by it since after all the performance is there, the mature profiling tools are there, the library ecosystem is there, and there are diverse programming languages, frameworks, and multiple programming paradigms all of which ride atop the JVM. examples: (Java, JRuby, Scala, Clojure, Vertx.io (non-blocking io/javascript), Lift, Akka, spray.io, Play, Immutant, Wildfly, etc) What I'm getting at is there's really no good excuse for a team who standardizes on the JVM to ever need to go outside of that paradigm unless perhaps they're writing a C extension to optimize some tight loop, but these days the JVM's optimizing bytecode compiler is getting pretty decent at doing that for you. If 99% of your application code (the code that is updated continually) runs on the JVM then even if you have a micro-services architecture with several different programming languages in use you don't really need to lean on a containerization technology to standardize deployment because all of it is already under the same runtime environment roof anyways. From an operations standpoint all your build/deploy step really needs to do is ship jar files around over the network irregardless whether it's a clojure service, or a scala, or ruby app. And all of it can be monitored in a clean way thanks to the monitoring support built into the JVM called JMX. To use docker in such a situation is to just waste system resources and to increase network IO (moving heavy disk images around) for no reason. Instead you can just use shell scripts or Ansible to provision an instance and then rely on the JVM's own venerable mini-containerization primitive (the jar file) as the standard way to deploy apps across your fleet. To each his own though..

by curun1r 11y ago

pron 11y ago

I work on Capsule. It's not about philosophy but pragmatism. Most organizations are mostly Java, and even if Java doesn't make up 90% of the components, it makes up 90% of the deployments because that's what the core business software uses. Such organizations get to use a a rather crude tool that takes away some of the power of their technology stack. Why not use a slimmer, faster, less-hassle tool for the majority of your deploys? And if we want to talk philosophy, Docker really mixes two separate issues -- portable packaging and isolation. Capsule separates them. If you want, you can launch a capsule inside a Docker container. If you want, you can directly launch it in a more convenient container simply by launching it with Shield (or outside a container by running it directly). As Shield will be open-container-compatible, there's no reason why Docker and Shield shouldn't play together. And remember, Capsule requires zero additional tools on top of what developers use anyway (it's just a plain Maven Central library that you stick in your JAR with your build tool).

carlosdp 11y ago
Even if 90% of deployments are on JVM, that's 10% of deployments that you have to somehow treat differently. Docker is designed to take away this concern, just treat everything as units that need to be deployed on boxes.
- pron 11y ago
  So you want 100% of your deploys to be slower and less convenient than they need be just because you need to use another tool for 10% of them (and mostly for code that wasn't even written in the organization, so those images might not even need to be maintained by the organization)? I'd understand if you'd want to do that for a 50-50 mix, but not 90-10. Also, remember that Capsule doesn't add another build step. You need to create JARs anyway, so you might as well make them capsules. You then either have the option of adding another step of building Docker images (just because you have some other Docker containers, most of them not even built by you) or not. Capsule just saves you that extra step and still lets you isolate your app in a container if you want, while making everything faster and management+logging easier. I don't think the need/wish to use containers for isolation should dictate your packaging solution.
  - mwcampbell 11y ago
    What makes Docker-based deploys of JVM applications slower than Capsule-based deploys? All of an organization's Docker images for JVM applications would probably be based on the same base image, so there's no waste there.
    - pron 11y ago
      Because you still need the extra step of creating the images (and layering them carefully if you want them to share dependencies other than the JVM). To run a capsule inside a container (if you want to run it in a container), you just tell Shield to launch the capsule JAR (which is created anyway by the build). In fact, you can even embed Shield itself in the capsule.
  - carlosdp 11y ago
    Docker is incredibly good at caching, the assumption that Docker is slow is incorrect. The first time you build or pull an image on a machine, it might take a few to get the base images, but past that it is lightning fast, and it works the same for any language and any stack. For most companies that operate several services, having one trusted and strong way to deploy and orchestrate is way more important than an occasional load/build time when working on a new laptop / instance. Edit: I'm not saying Capsule isn't useful, it just doesn't make any sense to say it compares to Docker, because the use-case is quite different in reality.
federico3 11y ago
> Most organizations are mostly Java ...quite a bold statement. Can you cite some sources?
- pron 11y ago
  Sure. Estimates are that 90% of Fortune 500 companies use Java[1], and Java dominates job offering by a wide margin[2]: "its stranglehold on modern development is unshakable." The #2 platform is, unsurprisingly .Net. If you concentrate on non-Windows platforms you see that Java easily constitutes a majority. Note that what I said is adjusted by size: fledgling companies prefer quicker development. [1]: http://www.zipcodewilmington.com/blog/why-java-skills-matter-now-and-in-the-future/ http://www.zipcodewilmington.com/blog/why-java-skills-matter... [2]: http://www.infoworld.com/article/2868654/it-jobs/java-developers-hot-job-market.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2868654/it-jobs/java-develo..., http://www.infoworld.com/article/2608294/java/employers-want-java-skills-more-than-anything-else.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2608294/java/employers-want...
curun1r 11y ago
You live in a much more Java-centric world than I do. Your world seems similar to the one I inhabited for well over a decade (I wrote Java code professionally from 1997-2012), but with the rise of microservices, I'm seeing almost no interest in creating any new Java code. The JVM isn't going away...there's plenty of Scala and even some Clojure. But there's also a move towards newer platforms like Node and Go. And there's even been a rediscovery of platforms like Ruby and Python when the performance penalty doesn't come into play. Docker enables everything to play nicely together. Capsule seems to double down on the old, monoculture way of developing. For people that want to do that, I'm sure your solution is an excellent product. But my own perspective, which may be skewed by being in the bay area, is that those people are the minority, not the majority.
- pron 11y ago
  > there's plenty of Scala and even some Clojure. But there's also a move towards newer platforms like Node and Go. And there's even been a rediscovery of platforms like Ruby and Python when the performance penalty doesn't come into play. I won't say what you're saying isn't real, but it is happening on a completely different scale than the size of the Java ecosystem. Even on the JVM, what you see as "plenty of Scala" doesn't even amount to 5% -- not that it matters, but it's just an example of why I think your view is skewed. The size of the Go ecosystem is hardly 1% of that of the JVM (rough estimate), and while Node.js/Python are "a thing" (and are the only languages/platforms of those you mentioned that are used to a substantial amount outside of startups), they are still tiny compared to the use of the JVM. Even in Silicon Valley (which is in itself a very small portion of the software world), the large "webby" application companies (with the notable exception of Facebook) are JVM shops: Amazon, Google, eBay, Twitter, Netflix are either entirely JVM or predominantly JVM, and even Facebook is making growing use of the Java. Most of the shifts you're seeing is among non-JVM technologies. It's mostly Pythonists that switch to Go and Rubyists that switch to Elixir/Node.js, etc.. The JVM was never the biggest player in the "fast application development" arena -- at the beginning there was VB, and then Perl, and then Python/Ruby and so forth. I see no signs that there is greater movement away from the JVM -- mostly among those who realize they're better served by the "fast dev" platforms even at the cost of performance -- than towards it -- by those realizing they need the best the industry can offer in terms of performance/monitorability/tooling even at the cost of slower development.

solofounder2 11y ago

I think enormous sprawling enterprises who's infrastructure has evolved over decades really need something like docker in order to consolidate what used to feel like a tangled mass of different tech. For that use case docker probably saves top firms a ton of money by reducing overall complexity in their operations. However for early stage web startups especially ones that use the JVM there are only really likely to be a handful of diverse technologies in play. A typical example: nginx, jruby, redis, kafka, <primary persistence tech goes here>. Now at first glance you might look at this and see 5 diverse systems and think "these guys could probably benefit from docker", and perhaps some could, but I personally think that a growing number of shops feel like it's a waste of time and resources, and here is why: Although there are five separate systems in the example above the truth is that developers are not sitting around writing nginx config files all day, nor kafka config, nor redis config, nor Mysql config files. Those are things that you only have to setup correctly once and then you only change gradually, a few lines here and there over the lifetime of the business until you settle in on the most optimized configuration for your workload. 99.9% of your team's changes will only touch the "application layer" which in this example resides on a single runtime environment (the JVM). Teams who utilize the JVM in this way usually don't feel "pinned in" by it since after all the performance is there, the mature profiling tools are there, the library ecosystem is there, and there are diverse programming languages, frameworks, and multiple programming paradigms all of which ride atop the JVM. examples: (Java, JRuby, Scala, Clojure, Vertx.io (non-blocking io/javascript), Lift, Akka, spray.io, Play, Immutant, Wildfly, etc) What I'm getting at is there's really no good excuse for a team who standardizes on the JVM to ever need to go outside of that paradigm unless perhaps they're writing a C extension to optimize some tight loop, but these days the JVM's optimizing bytecode compiler is getting pretty decent at doing that for you. If 99% of your application code (the code that is updated continually) runs on the JVM then even if you have a micro-services architecture with several different programming languages in use you don't really need to lean on a containerization technology to standardize deployment because all of it is already under the same runtime environment roof anyways. From an operations standpoint all your build/deploy step really needs to do is ship jar files around over the network irregardless whether it's a clojure service, or a scala, or ruby app. And all of it can be monitored in a clean way thanks to the monitoring support built into the JVM called JMX. To use docker in such a situation is to just waste system resources and to increase network IO (moving heavy disk images around) for no reason. Instead you can just use shell scripts or Ansible to provision an instance and then rely on the JVM's own venerable mini-containerization primitive (the jar file) as the standard way to deploy apps across your fleet. To each his own though..