4 ms·

"Frankly, we can play the "No, you're using the power of the state" I don't wish to defend zoning laws, nor humour a "tu quoque" contest. Not necessary for my

by fche 11y ago

"Frankly, we can play the "No, you're using the power of the state" I don't wish to defend zoning laws, nor humour a "tu quoque" contest. Not necessary for my point. "My previous landlords did nothing to improve the value of their property." That's also beside the point. They made an investment in buying and improving the land. They are not permitted to realize the market value that their investment (foresight / risk-taking) had earned.

simoncion 11y ago
> ...nor humour a "tu quoque" contest. Awful sly of you to indirectly make the claim that I was calling you a hypocrite. I'm not. I'm declaring that everyone who lives in a governed district is a beneficiary of the state's ability to restrict supply of one thing or another. This includes landlords who might have the "value" of their "investment" inflated due to restricted supply. > They made an investment in buying [the land]... Yes. Agreed. > ...and improving the land. No. No, they did not. They paid someone else to get access to the revenue stream that comes from the people living in the building that was constructed roughly one hundred years before they made the purchase. Additionally, the building was constructed more than fifty years before $CURRENT_LANDLORD-2 made his purchase. Neither of them fronted the money and took on the risk to build the only improvement on the land. What's more, $CURRENT_LANDLORD's negligence is lowering the value of the property they purchased. Vermin infestation throughout the building and trash accumulation in public areas [0] are now not-uncommon sights. Essential building services are unreliable and not-infrequently unavailable due to failure to perform regular preventative maintenance. Are you using some definition of "$CURRENT_LANDLORD is improving the land." that remains true when the actions that the landowner takes both damage the pre-existing building on the property and lower its value, actual or otherwise? > Not necessary for my point. It really seems like your point is not valid, for the situation that a renter not-infrequently finds himself in in San Francisco. [1] Because the demand for rental housing is so high, landlords can often get away with failing to perform even the legally required maintenance and upkeep and still have people breaking down their doors to rent their vacant apartments. I don't see how one can -with a straight face- make the claim that a property owner is adding value to a property when they aren't even performing the maintenance required to adequately counteract the natural forces of entropy. Do you now understand what I mean when I say "$CURRENT_LANDLORD has done nothing to improve the value of their property."? [0] Due to not-infrequent failure of building management to swap out the full garbage, recycling, and composting bins with empty ones. [1] Your argument may be (and probably is) totally valid in other situations. San Francisco's housing market (rental or otherwise) is a special bucket of suck.
- fche 11y ago
  "[can't claim ...] property owner is adding value to a property" The property's mere continued existence is adding that value. "Do you now understand what I mean when I say "$CURRENT_LANDLORD has done nothing to improve the value of their property."?" Sure (in a hands-getting-dirty sense), and it is unfortunate. On the other hand, the landlord is a commercial beast. Come to think of it, if stuck with suppressed income, it's hard to see much incentive (never mind available $) to improve the property on an ongoing basis. This too can be yet another unintended consequence of rent control.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    Sorry for the delayed reply. I took a break to do useful things. > The property's mere continued existence is adding that value. And did you keep a straight face while you were typing those words? Let's say that I own a car. I purchased this car as a new car some time ago. I regularly fail to perform maintenance of any kind. I frequently operate the car when it is critically low on lubricants and coolants. I regularly strike deep potholes and large rocks during my travels. I frequently eat inside the vehicle. It is littered with food wrappers and decomposing partially-eaten meals from months and years gone by. I also frequently transport unwell animals inside my car. These animals often vomit, urinate, and defecate inside the car. I have never cleaned the interior of the vehicle. Because of my failure to maintain the vehicle, its engine and suspension are a wreck. They are dangerously unsafe. Because of my failure to clean the interior of the vehicle, it is -at best- a horrifying, ungodly, malodorous mess, and -more likely- a serious health hazard. My wilful negligence has significantly decreased the value of the car. Why does your assessment of the situation change when the durable good changes from an automobile to a multi-family dwelling? Is it because the on-paper value of the building has dramatically increased over the past couple of decades? If it is, then you must understand that the credit for that on-paper increase in value is to be completely given to the local government, because of its zoning laws which have resulted in a dramatic undersupply of housing in the area. The landlord in this situation is -like our negligent car owner- failing to maintain (let alone improve) his durable good. In a sane market, this would cause the on-paper value of his durable good to decrease. I say again. $CURRENT_LANDLORD has done nothing to improve the value of his property. To this I add: The City is the one who drives the value of his property up and hides the deleterious effects of his negligence. Now do you understand how you misunderstand the rather special situation in this city?

by fche 11y ago

simoncion 11y ago

> ...nor humour a "tu quoque" contest. Awful sly of you to indirectly make the claim that I was calling you a hypocrite. I'm not. I'm declaring that everyone who lives in a governed district is a beneficiary of the state's ability to restrict supply of one thing or another. This includes landlords who might have the "value" of their "investment" inflated due to restricted supply. > They made an investment in buying [the land]... Yes. Agreed. > ...and improving the land. No. No, they did not. They paid someone else to get access to the revenue stream that comes from the people living in the building that was constructed roughly one hundred years before they made the purchase. Additionally, the building was constructed more than fifty years before $CURRENT_LANDLORD-2 made his purchase. Neither of them fronted the money and took on the risk to build the only improvement on the land. What's more, $CURRENT_LANDLORD's negligence is lowering the value of the property they purchased. Vermin infestation throughout the building and trash accumulation in public areas [0] are now not-uncommon sights. Essential building services are unreliable and not-infrequently unavailable due to failure to perform regular preventative maintenance. Are you using some definition of "$CURRENT_LANDLORD is improving the land." that remains true when the actions that the landowner takes both damage the pre-existing building on the property and lower its value, actual or otherwise? > Not necessary for my point. It really seems like your point is not valid, for the situation that a renter not-infrequently finds himself in in San Francisco. [1] Because the demand for rental housing is so high, landlords can often get away with failing to perform even the legally required maintenance and upkeep and still have people breaking down their doors to rent their vacant apartments. I don't see how one can -with a straight face- make the claim that a property owner is adding value to a property when they aren't even performing the maintenance required to adequately counteract the natural forces of entropy. Do you now understand what I mean when I say "$CURRENT_LANDLORD has done nothing to improve the value of their property."? [0] Due to not-infrequent failure of building management to swap out the full garbage, recycling, and composting bins with empty ones. [1] Your argument may be (and probably is) totally valid in other situations. San Francisco's housing market (rental or otherwise) is a special bucket of suck.

fche 11y ago
"[can't claim ...] property owner is adding value to a property" The property's mere continued existence is adding that value. "Do you now understand what I mean when I say "$CURRENT_LANDLORD has done nothing to improve the value of their property."?" Sure (in a hands-getting-dirty sense), and it is unfortunate. On the other hand, the landlord is a commercial beast. Come to think of it, if stuck with suppressed income, it's hard to see much incentive (never mind available $) to improve the property on an ongoing basis. This too can be yet another unintended consequence of rent control.
- simoncion 11y ago
  Sorry for the delayed reply. I took a break to do useful things. > The property's mere continued existence is adding that value. And did you keep a straight face while you were typing those words? Let's say that I own a car. I purchased this car as a new car some time ago. I regularly fail to perform maintenance of any kind. I frequently operate the car when it is critically low on lubricants and coolants. I regularly strike deep potholes and large rocks during my travels. I frequently eat inside the vehicle. It is littered with food wrappers and decomposing partially-eaten meals from months and years gone by. I also frequently transport unwell animals inside my car. These animals often vomit, urinate, and defecate inside the car. I have never cleaned the interior of the vehicle. Because of my failure to maintain the vehicle, its engine and suspension are a wreck. They are dangerously unsafe. Because of my failure to clean the interior of the vehicle, it is -at best- a horrifying, ungodly, malodorous mess, and -more likely- a serious health hazard. My wilful negligence has significantly decreased the value of the car. Why does your assessment of the situation change when the durable good changes from an automobile to a multi-family dwelling? Is it because the on-paper value of the building has dramatically increased over the past couple of decades? If it is, then you must understand that the credit for that on-paper increase in value is to be completely given to the local government, because of its zoning laws which have resulted in a dramatic undersupply of housing in the area. The landlord in this situation is -like our negligent car owner- failing to maintain (let alone improve) his durable good. In a sane market, this would cause the on-paper value of his durable good to decrease. I say again. $CURRENT_LANDLORD has done nothing to improve the value of his property. To this I add: The City is the one who drives the value of his property up and hides the deleterious effects of his negligence. Now do you understand how you misunderstand the rather special situation in this city?