4 ms·

Genuine question though – why should citizens living abroad (i.e. not using US public services) pay for those services through taxation?

venomsnake 11y ago
Because the US passport is opening the whole world to its bearers, the protection US gives its citizens abroad is outstanding, and if some bad guys try to cut your head for ransom - chances of being saved or avenged are substantial. Also US is still the sole global superpower.
- dmichulke 11y ago
  Interestingly, the above reasons (and that perspective in general) are also the top reasons for a selected few to want to cut your head off.
  - mprovost 11y ago
    I have dual US-NZ citizenship and I can think of no circumstance where if I was in trouble I would either: tell anyone that I was an American, or try and call the US Govt for help.
mikeash 11y ago
They do use many US public services, though. American expats can still collect Social Security, still get to vote, still have their passport honored and renewed, are able to take advantage of US consular services, etc. They may use these services less, and certainly use a different mix than the average American living in the US, but it's not nothing.
- LunaSea 11y ago
  Voting is not a service but a right and you'll have to pay for your passport renewal anyways [1]. What consular services did you have in mind that would justify this cost ? [1] http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/passports/information/fees.html http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/passports/infor...
- jmadsen 11y ago
  sorry, but that's a silly answer: - Social Security is collected on what I paid into the system while I was living/working in the US. Not a part of this - Voting is a right - nothing to do with taxes - My "consular services"? My passport renewed? I cost me $100 or something like that to get my passport renewed, and most of us never go anywhere near our "consular services" - I'm not even sure what they offer, except to business people over here via the Amer. Chamber of Commerce (which they pay an arm & a leg to join)
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Just because voting is a right doesn't mean it just happens by magic. Elections are expensive and that money doesn't come from trees.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    > - Voting is a right - nothing to do with taxes Your rights can only be secured if the Government can pay for them.
  - Amezarak 11y ago
    > - Social Security is collected on what I paid into the system while I was living/working in the US. Not a part of this Wrong. Your Social Security benefits are proportional to what you put in (usually), but you will receive more money than you put in and more money than you money earned over that time period, assuming a normal life expectancy. The trope that you only get what you put in with SS and Medicare is false.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- jawngee 11y ago
  I'm an expat living in Vietnam, and all consular services cost money upfront. Collecting social security is collecting on the SS taxes you already paid, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything. Trust me, it is as close to nothing as nothing gets.
- matthewmacleod 11y ago
  That's a fair point. I wonder if there's a better way to structure that than the existing income tax?
crdb 11y ago
The key is to look at the current budget: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_United_States_federal_budget#Outlays_by_budget_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_United_States_federal_bud... It can be split into three families of spending: - defense, which benefits you globally via Pax Americana, free trade routes etc. and should you require it, "Captain Phillips" style rescue. - "socialism", in the form of benefits that everybody has to pay for and that you can receive if you trigger certain situations (retirement, unemployment, etc.). Most expatriated Americans probably already benefitted from free education which is included here. - "generally making the country locally better" (justice, environment, etc.). Of these, only the latter doesn't directly impact Americans abroad. The first benefits you wherever you are; foreign citizen somewhat benefit from Pax Americana but there is no guarantee it will continue, whilst US citizen are covered globally with much more certainty. The second is a form of compulsory insurance for life developments that will probably coincide with repatriation. But that's about 7% of the budget (rough back of the envelope). The question is why don't other countries tax their citizen abroad? I think it is mainly because they can't afford to enforce it (good luck, Estonia, forcing JP Morgan to give you access to their New York client data). If they could, with any degree of certainty, they would in a heartbeat. France proposes to do it every 6 months.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- nico_h 11y ago
  >foreign citizen somewhat benefit from Pax Americana but there is no guarantee it will continue, whilst US citizen are covered globally with much more certainty Tell that to the lybian, syrian, iraki, Salvadoran, etc... that have "benefited" from the "Pax" Americana
- matthewmacleod 11y ago
  Ah, education is an interesting point. The question is why don't other countries tax their citizen abroad? I assumed that the general consensus was that it all balances out at the end of the day – countries don't tax their citizens abroad, but do tax noncitizen residents who have income in the country. Either approach isn't all that bad, but it's interesting to think about how it can realistically be handled where individuals can hold multiple citizenships. My partner is dual US/UK, and completing a US tax return when you haven't lived in the country in decades is expensive and time-consuming.
AlisdairO 11y ago
There's probably a legitimate point to be made that countries typically spend a large amount of money during an individual's formative years that they don't pay back until they've spent a significant length of time working, so they have in essence pre-used a lot of those services. I wouldn't personally advocate that stance - I think it's problematic with respect to consent - but I can see that in the case of extremely high emigration rate the viewpoint might be very tempting.

venomsnake 11y ago

Because the US passport is opening the whole world to its bearers, the protection US gives its citizens abroad is outstanding, and if some bad guys try to cut your head for ransom - chances of being saved or avenged are substantial. Also US is still the sole global superpower.

dmichulke 11y ago
Interestingly, the above reasons (and that perspective in general) are also the top reasons for a selected few to want to cut your head off.
- mprovost 11y ago
  I have dual US-NZ citizenship and I can think of no circumstance where if I was in trouble I would either: tell anyone that I was an American, or try and call the US Govt for help.

mikeash 11y ago

They do use many US public services, though. American expats can still collect Social Security, still get to vote, still have their passport honored and renewed, are able to take advantage of US consular services, etc. They may use these services less, and certainly use a different mix than the average American living in the US, but it's not nothing.

LunaSea 11y ago
Voting is not a service but a right and you'll have to pay for your passport renewal anyways [1]. What consular services did you have in mind that would justify this cost ? [1] http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/passports/information/fees.html http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/passports/infor...
jmadsen 11y ago
sorry, but that's a silly answer: - Social Security is collected on what I paid into the system while I was living/working in the US. Not a part of this - Voting is a right - nothing to do with taxes - My "consular services"? My passport renewed? I cost me $100 or something like that to get my passport renewed, and most of us never go anywhere near our "consular services" - I'm not even sure what they offer, except to business people over here via the Amer. Chamber of Commerce (which they pay an arm & a leg to join)
- mikeash 11y ago
  Just because voting is a right doesn't mean it just happens by magic. Elections are expensive and that money doesn't come from trees.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  > - Voting is a right - nothing to do with taxes Your rights can only be secured if the Government can pay for them.
- Amezarak 11y ago
  > - Social Security is collected on what I paid into the system while I was living/working in the US. Not a part of this Wrong. Your Social Security benefits are proportional to what you put in (usually), but you will receive more money than you put in and more money than you money earned over that time period, assuming a normal life expectancy. The trope that you only get what you put in with SS and Medicare is false.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
jawngee 11y ago
I'm an expat living in Vietnam, and all consular services cost money upfront. Collecting social security is collecting on the SS taxes you already paid, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything. Trust me, it is as close to nothing as nothing gets.
matthewmacleod 11y ago
That's a fair point. I wonder if there's a better way to structure that than the existing income tax?

crdb 11y ago

The key is to look at the current budget: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_United_States_federal_budget#Outlays_by_budget_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_United_States_federal_bud... It can be split into three families of spending: - defense, which benefits you globally via Pax Americana, free trade routes etc. and should you require it, "Captain Phillips" style rescue. - "socialism", in the form of benefits that everybody has to pay for and that you can receive if you trigger certain situations (retirement, unemployment, etc.). Most expatriated Americans probably already benefitted from free education which is included here. - "generally making the country locally better" (justice, environment, etc.). Of these, only the latter doesn't directly impact Americans abroad. The first benefits you wherever you are; foreign citizen somewhat benefit from Pax Americana but there is no guarantee it will continue, whilst US citizen are covered globally with much more certainty. The second is a form of compulsory insurance for life developments that will probably coincide with repatriation. But that's about 7% of the budget (rough back of the envelope). The question is why don't other countries tax their citizen abroad? I think it is mainly because they can't afford to enforce it (good luck, Estonia, forcing JP Morgan to give you access to their New York client data). If they could, with any degree of certainty, they would in a heartbeat. France proposes to do it every 6 months.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
nico_h 11y ago
>foreign citizen somewhat benefit from Pax Americana but there is no guarantee it will continue, whilst US citizen are covered globally with much more certainty Tell that to the lybian, syrian, iraki, Salvadoran, etc... that have "benefited" from the "Pax" Americana
matthewmacleod 11y ago
Ah, education is an interesting point. The question is why don't other countries tax their citizen abroad? I assumed that the general consensus was that it all balances out at the end of the day – countries don't tax their citizens abroad, but do tax noncitizen residents who have income in the country. Either approach isn't all that bad, but it's interesting to think about how it can realistically be handled where individuals can hold multiple citizenships. My partner is dual US/UK, and completing a US tax return when you haven't lived in the country in decades is expensive and time-consuming.

AlisdairO 11y ago

There's probably a legitimate point to be made that countries typically spend a large amount of money during an individual's formative years that they don't pay back until they've spent a significant length of time working, so they have in essence pre-used a lot of those services. I wouldn't personally advocate that stance - I think it's problematic with respect to consent - but I can see that in the case of extremely high emigration rate the viewpoint might be very tempting.