8 ms·

Google launches utility company: Google Energy

54 points by abraham 17y ago

sophacles 17y ago
dupe of http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1037287 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1037287
- tvon 17y ago
  I'm really starting to wish there was a way to merge submissions.
  - tokenadult 17y ago
    I am too. I see that done on the online forum I spend the most time on after HN. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=363 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=363 Maybe this should be a feature request.
waterlesscloud 17y ago
Buy and sell electricity. Gooron!
wmeredith 17y ago
According to Google their intent is not to enter the utilities market, but to be able to more easily manage their goal of becoming a carbon neutral entity.
- sophacles 17y ago
  Right, thats why they have the google power meter stuff too. Having a large pile of statistical data, and realtime data, and a major statistical analysis engine AND the ability to buy low and sell high for power is not at all a massive money maker.
  - sophacles 17y ago
    So I work in the power grid space, and talking to some collegues about this, turns out the behaviour in my speculation is actually VERY illegal. There are many regulations about keeping groups that handle these types of data and operations very separate. Otherwise it is essentially collusion.
    - dmix 17y ago
      I'm glad that was cleared up. Techcrunch was this | | close to writing an article based on you speculation.
      - sophacles 17y ago
        I hope that was a funny joke and not a sad truth... :)
    - DaniFong 17y ago
      Can you please elaborate? Are you really saying that it isn't legal to be able to use one's data on usage intelligently? Don't utilities need to -- and do this -- anyway? Is it true internationally?
      - sophacles 17y ago
        So my understanding is limited, and only applies to the US as far as i know, but it goes something like this: The power grid involves a few distinct parts -- generation, transmission, distribution. Distribution is the aspect most people ever deal with, its the "last mile" part. Generation is self explanitory, and transmission is the high voltage lines between the generators and the distribution. Some companies only do one aspect, some do 2 or all 3. The "deregulation" of the power market, was actually the creation a wholesale market of a commodity. This means that A generator operator in michigan can "sell" electricity to a utility in florida. In reality, the electrons never get transported that of course. The way the market works is -- Various generators place a bid on the market: x watts for y price/watt. An official, neutral party aggregates all the distribution loads, and does some fancy analysis, and puts out an official number -- how many watt of power the peak draw will be for that period. All bids are sorted, lowest price to highest price. Like this (very very fake nubmers): 5W $1/W 10W $2/W 3W $3/W In our example the peak draw is projected at 13W. Starting with the lowest bid and working up, the available power is used. in this case the first 2 bids. The highest bid under the line sets the price for power. So in this case power is sold at $2/W. This is the price for the whole market, it is what wholesale power costs to distribution companies for that period. The company that can provide 5W at $1/W makes a healthy profit. The expensive company doesnt make any money, their electricity is unused. The regulations keeping metering groups separate from the power market groups are there for market efficiency. First the generation only companies lose out. Second, if some companies had extra data, they could start playing with things, arranging for thier power bids to be raised/lowered in ways that are market inefficient. This enforces everyone to try to bid as low as possible to try to get their power sold at all. So to answer your question: no it sets up the stage for price gouging on the power market. the data is used intelligently for various long-term forecasting, efficency determinations, and for reporting to the markets, but the markets use the data intelligently for setting loads. Note, the data reported to the market by a utility is in effect statistical prediction, but the people who determine bid price for electricity never see this data. (people means algorithms here too). I'm pretty free-market, but these regulations make sense, in the same way that insider trading regulations make sense, and regulation against monopolistic competition. If it is not clear they are the same thing, it is more likely my explanation than the alternative.
- abstractbill 17y ago
  Actually, as interesting and exciting as it would definitely be to see Google in the utilities market, I think it's almost as interesting just that the people at Google feel strongly enough about carbon neutrality being a Good Thing that they are putting a really significant amount of time and money into achieving it.
- coderdude 17y ago
  I wonder if you can use that excuse for other purchases. Like buying a small country to more efficiently manage physical waste disposal, or something.
  - Hoff 17y ago
    There is precedent. Becoming your own government entity (Reedy Creek) seems to have worked out for Disney. I for one welcome our new Google overlords.
clistctrl 17y ago
"The search giant formed a Delaware-based company called Google Energy " Gotta love those Delaware state tax laws
- icey 17y ago
  It's not just for tax purposes - Delaware also has the most established corporate law, so companies can expect fewer legal surprises.
  - eru 17y ago
    Why do they have the most established corporate law? (Please explain for a non-American. Thanks!)
    - icey 17y ago
      It's the most established just because that's where most corporations have incorporated. Corporations don't want any surprises when it comes to legal dealings, so it's very attractive to incorporate in a place where most plausible scenarios have been tried and resolved in court previously. There are a number of legal reasons for incorporating in Delaware (in addition to the favorable tax situation): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_General_Corporation_Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_General_Corporation_La... The short summary is: A long history of legal precedence, a separate court for corporate law which ensures a judiciary that is deeply familiar with corporate law, and the State of Delaware has generally corporation friendly laws. In the United States, corporations are held to the laws of the state they are incorporated in, even if they do business in all 50 states.
ortichi 17y ago
It would be interesting to see how they implement a market for this.
rebelvc 17y ago
Great news for internet startups. The more unfocused they are more companies they have to buy to catch up. Also, more time for startups to outmaneuver Google.
- mtkd 17y ago
  At some point one of these new, non-core, ventures will be identified by historians as the point at which Google made the same mistake as Microsoft and started out on the slow path to insignificance.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - apu 17y ago
    Do you really think that MS is in trouble because they focused on non-core ventures? If anything, I'd say the complete opposite: they're in trouble because they're not good at focusing on the web, which is a major non-core venture for them (I think MS Windows & Office are their bread & butter). Fundamentally, MS never "got" the internet, and they have too much weight to maneuver effectively now.
    - ams6110 17y ago
      They are in trouble because they are in so many things that doing something good in one niche will cannibalize sales in another niche. Make a killer web office suite? Kills off sales of Office and Windows. Make a great webmail site? Kills off Exchange and Windows Server sales.
- tentonova2 17y ago
  Do you genuinely believe that a company with such a huge investment in data centers is demonstrating a lack of focus by concerning themselves with energy?
  - ElliotH 17y ago
qeorge 17y ago
I hate to be a downer, but this just sounds crazy to me. Yes, I understand that they use a ton of power and can probably get it cheaper this way, but this is an advertising and software company, not a power company. Am I being a total neophobe or do others think they're drifting dangerously far away from their core competencies?
- joubert 17y ago
  Google's stated mission: to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful. I.e. ALL the information on earth (they may need reword from "world" to galaxy or whatever in the future). Whenever they need a resource or perform an activity at scale and the existing solutions suck they like to invent better ways (e.g. dutch auction instead of investment bank cabal when listing on a stock exchange). PS: I'm not a big fan of the corporatist phrase, "core competency". I dislike it almost as much as I dislike the phrase "best practice", for the similar reasons.
- DaniFong 17y ago
  Actually the practice of companies managing their own energy preceded the creation of the electric grid, and preceded the existence of software companies by over a century. Even today most large scale engineering outfits are both vertically integrated and use vertical integration to launch into other markets (e.g. General Electric, and Tata, which was a steel company.)

54 points by abraham 17y ago

sophacles 17y ago

dupe of http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1037287 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1037287

tvon 17y ago
I'm really starting to wish there was a way to merge submissions.
- tokenadult 17y ago
  I am too. I see that done on the online forum I spend the most time on after HN. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=363 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=363 Maybe this should be a feature request.

waterlesscloud 17y ago

Buy and sell electricity. Gooron!

wmeredith 17y ago

According to Google their intent is not to enter the utilities market, but to be able to more easily manage their goal of becoming a carbon neutral entity.

sophacles 17y ago
Right, thats why they have the google power meter stuff too. Having a large pile of statistical data, and realtime data, and a major statistical analysis engine AND the ability to buy low and sell high for power is not at all a massive money maker.
- sophacles 17y ago
  So I work in the power grid space, and talking to some collegues about this, turns out the behaviour in my speculation is actually VERY illegal. There are many regulations about keeping groups that handle these types of data and operations very separate. Otherwise it is essentially collusion.
  - dmix 17y ago
    I'm glad that was cleared up. Techcrunch was this | | close to writing an article based on you speculation.
    - sophacles 17y ago
      I hope that was a funny joke and not a sad truth... :)
  - DaniFong 17y ago
    Can you please elaborate? Are you really saying that it isn't legal to be able to use one's data on usage intelligently? Don't utilities need to -- and do this -- anyway? Is it true internationally?
    - sophacles 17y ago
      So my understanding is limited, and only applies to the US as far as i know, but it goes something like this: The power grid involves a few distinct parts -- generation, transmission, distribution. Distribution is the aspect most people ever deal with, its the "last mile" part. Generation is self explanitory, and transmission is the high voltage lines between the generators and the distribution. Some companies only do one aspect, some do 2 or all 3. The "deregulation" of the power market, was actually the creation a wholesale market of a commodity. This means that A generator operator in michigan can "sell" electricity to a utility in florida. In reality, the electrons never get transported that of course. The way the market works is -- Various generators place a bid on the market: x watts for y price/watt. An official, neutral party aggregates all the distribution loads, and does some fancy analysis, and puts out an official number -- how many watt of power the peak draw will be for that period. All bids are sorted, lowest price to highest price. Like this (very very fake nubmers): 5W $1/W 10W $2/W 3W $3/W In our example the peak draw is projected at 13W. Starting with the lowest bid and working up, the available power is used. in this case the first 2 bids. The highest bid under the line sets the price for power. So in this case power is sold at $2/W. This is the price for the whole market, it is what wholesale power costs to distribution companies for that period. The company that can provide 5W at $1/W makes a healthy profit. The expensive company doesnt make any money, their electricity is unused. The regulations keeping metering groups separate from the power market groups are there for market efficiency. First the generation only companies lose out. Second, if some companies had extra data, they could start playing with things, arranging for thier power bids to be raised/lowered in ways that are market inefficient. This enforces everyone to try to bid as low as possible to try to get their power sold at all. So to answer your question: no it sets up the stage for price gouging on the power market. the data is used intelligently for various long-term forecasting, efficency determinations, and for reporting to the markets, but the markets use the data intelligently for setting loads. Note, the data reported to the market by a utility is in effect statistical prediction, but the people who determine bid price for electricity never see this data. (people means algorithms here too). I'm pretty free-market, but these regulations make sense, in the same way that insider trading regulations make sense, and regulation against monopolistic competition. If it is not clear they are the same thing, it is more likely my explanation than the alternative.
abstractbill 17y ago
Actually, as interesting and exciting as it would definitely be to see Google in the utilities market, I think it's almost as interesting just that the people at Google feel strongly enough about carbon neutrality being a Good Thing that they are putting a really significant amount of time and money into achieving it.
coderdude 17y ago
I wonder if you can use that excuse for other purchases. Like buying a small country to more efficiently manage physical waste disposal, or something.
- Hoff 17y ago
  There is precedent. Becoming your own government entity (Reedy Creek) seems to have worked out for Disney. I for one welcome our new Google overlords.

clistctrl 17y ago

"The search giant formed a Delaware-based company called Google Energy " Gotta love those Delaware state tax laws

icey 17y ago
It's not just for tax purposes - Delaware also has the most established corporate law, so companies can expect fewer legal surprises.
- eru 17y ago
  Why do they have the most established corporate law? (Please explain for a non-American. Thanks!)
  - icey 17y ago
    It's the most established just because that's where most corporations have incorporated. Corporations don't want any surprises when it comes to legal dealings, so it's very attractive to incorporate in a place where most plausible scenarios have been tried and resolved in court previously. There are a number of legal reasons for incorporating in Delaware (in addition to the favorable tax situation): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_General_Corporation_Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_General_Corporation_La... The short summary is: A long history of legal precedence, a separate court for corporate law which ensures a judiciary that is deeply familiar with corporate law, and the State of Delaware has generally corporation friendly laws. In the United States, corporations are held to the laws of the state they are incorporated in, even if they do business in all 50 states.

ortichi 17y ago

It would be interesting to see how they implement a market for this.

rebelvc 17y ago

Great news for internet startups. The more unfocused they are more companies they have to buy to catch up. Also, more time for startups to outmaneuver Google.

mtkd 17y ago
At some point one of these new, non-core, ventures will be identified by historians as the point at which Google made the same mistake as Microsoft and started out on the slow path to insignificance.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- apu 17y ago
  Do you really think that MS is in trouble because they focused on non-core ventures? If anything, I'd say the complete opposite: they're in trouble because they're not good at focusing on the web, which is a major non-core venture for them (I think MS Windows & Office are their bread & butter). Fundamentally, MS never "got" the internet, and they have too much weight to maneuver effectively now.
  - ams6110 17y ago
    They are in trouble because they are in so many things that doing something good in one niche will cannibalize sales in another niche. Make a killer web office suite? Kills off sales of Office and Windows. Make a great webmail site? Kills off Exchange and Windows Server sales.
tentonova2 17y ago
Do you genuinely believe that a company with such a huge investment in data centers is demonstrating a lack of focus by concerning themselves with energy?
- ElliotH 17y ago

qeorge 17y ago

I hate to be a downer, but this just sounds crazy to me. Yes, I understand that they use a ton of power and can probably get it cheaper this way, but this is an advertising and software company, not a power company. Am I being a total neophobe or do others think they're drifting dangerously far away from their core competencies?

joubert 17y ago
Google's stated mission: to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful. I.e. ALL the information on earth (they may need reword from "world" to galaxy or whatever in the future). Whenever they need a resource or perform an activity at scale and the existing solutions suck they like to invent better ways (e.g. dutch auction instead of investment bank cabal when listing on a stock exchange). PS: I'm not a big fan of the corporatist phrase, "core competency". I dislike it almost as much as I dislike the phrase "best practice", for the similar reasons.
DaniFong 17y ago
Actually the practice of companies managing their own energy preceded the creation of the electric grid, and preceded the existence of software companies by over a century. Even today most large scale engineering outfits are both vertically integrated and use vertical integration to launch into other markets (e.g. General Electric, and Tata, which was a steel company.)