10 ms·

Why is it wrong to ask someone if they are technical? Programmers, engineers, scientists go to tech conferences to talk about work, projects, side interests. T

by latj 11y ago

Why is it wrong to ask someone if they are technical? Programmers, engineers, scientists go to tech conferences to talk about work, projects, side interests. They dont want to get sucked into a sales pitch. I especially dont understand why this would offend the author- the resume on her website implies that she actually is more of a marketing person / copywriter than a technical person.

tomlock 11y ago
One thing that guys don't tend to realize is how much more often women get asked this question than men. Gamers that are women are generally annoyed when someone exaggeratedly asks "Will you marry meeee". Once, its a funny joke. Happening a dozen times at one event, not so funny. It seems reasonable as a once-off, but the frequency of the statement is what makes it hard to deal with.
- zxcvcxz 11y ago
  How are men supposed to know this without taking some type of sensitivity class and why should being "ultra sensitive" be a pre-requisite to participate in society?
  - tomlock 11y ago
    They could try listening to women about their experiences.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    The answer is in panel 6 here: http://achewood.com/index.php?date=12112007 http://achewood.com/index.php?date=12112007
  - lotharbot 11y ago
    most men have a mother. Many have wives, sisters, daughters, aunts, female coworkers, and so on. By listening to them, we can learn what sorts of things they experience, and perhaps learn not to do things to other women that we know would bother our mothers, wives, sisters, daughters, etc.
  - dsuth 11y ago
    That's kinda the whole point of the article - to raise awareness of an issue that women face. This is not about taking sensitivity classes, it's about accepting that there is a problem, and doing something about it as part of a community that wants to be more accepting towards women.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
chiaro 11y ago
It was "actually technical" as quoted in the post, as in "really? You?"
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
tptacek 11y ago
She wasn't "asked" if she was technical. The person assumed she wasn't based on her appearance and behaved accordingly. Why twist the narrative to make a point unrelated to the story?
- latj 11y ago
  I'm not sure what you're talking about. The "Are you actually technical" quote is not part of her anecdote, its in the list of things "men have said straight to my face at tech events" and it is quoted directly as "Are you actually technical". There is not context or narrative that can be twisted.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Sorry, I was fixated on the comment that directly preceded that one (which is obviously much more memorable). I'm sorry for suggesting that the comment twisted the narrative. I'll add, though: "are you actually technical" is an unpleasant way to phrase the question. It implies surprise that she might be.
    - latj 11y ago
      Yeah I agree. I would be annoyed too if people kept saying those things to me.
- xyzasdfwer 11y ago
  What is wrong with assuming she was not technical? Doesn't tech industry has more technical men than women?
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Because the assumption that women at technical events are not technical is one of the things preventing women from joining the field. It's also extremely condescending, and being condescending is rude and unpleasant. So please don't do that.
bpchaps 11y ago
Yeah, I don't really understand this, either. Most of the sales folks (just look at her resume..) I've worked with 'look' like a non-technical person. They absolutely look like they're trying to sell me something - whether it's through mannerisms, appearance, attitude or way of speaking. I'm going to ask them if they're technical if they're giving non-technical vibes as they try to sell me a complicated piece of software. Why wouldn't I? Why does it suddenly become sexist if she's a woman? One of the most impressively technically proficient sysadmins I've ever worked with was an extremely attractive, high-energy woman. She's often not taken seriously because she's a woman. How does she prove her gender isn't a factor? She does good fucking work and never, EVER, brings her gender into it because it's not relevant. That's how gender equality gets solved, dammit. I understand that she's basically being treated as a piece of meat at these places.. But the focus of her article is that she's not being treated seriously as a technical person at a tech conference, despite NOT being a technical person! Fluff and more fluff.
- glhaynes 11y ago
  How does she prove her gender isn't a factor? She does good fucking work and never, EVER, brings her gender into it because it's not relevant. That's how gender equality gets solved, dammit. Gender equality would be solved if more women were doing good work while being silent about gender inequality? I … don't buy it. Gender equality gets solved by making gender inequality unacceptable. Men are the primary imposers of inequality; it's our responsibility to fix it.
  - bpchaps 11y ago
    Sorry, should've been clear. It's one of the MANY ways to make it less acceptable to be shits towards others based on gender. Also, It's "our" responsibility to fix it? Can we let "them" help out with fixing this, too? :)
  - GhotiFish 11y ago
    This I don't get. Women can't fix it? Men are just keeping them down by being soooo demeaning and sexist? Are women that powerless and frail that half-assed 1% of the time "micro-aggressions" are enough to keep a whole gender from perusing their dreams? That's BS I say. It's BS that men are "the primary instigators of sexism" and it's BS that "men are required to fix the equality gap".
xyzasdfwer 11y ago
I think she is mixing two categories of comments: One category of comments are sexual in nature and any respectful person would take a strong stance against these. Everybody understands they are just a few bad people. The other category of comments come from not-knowing a person in advance. In such case, people generalize and assume things. Calling such conversations sexist is basically taking political-correctness to the extreme. It will make conversations with women-in-tech difficult. What is lacking is, women-in-tech, like the OP here, not acknowledging the facts before proposing their solutions. Tech industry is male-dominated because more men than women built the industry. Why it was the way is beyond us. We cannot wrong current generation for how the world was before they were born. This is the nature of the world/industry and nobody is at fault. Instead of calling tech industry sexist and turning everything political-correctness debate, women-in-tech need to give it enough time and teach tech to more women so that things will become gender balanced.
- dsuth 11y ago
  It is difficult to teach tech to women when there is a perceived bias against women in the tech industry. That is the point of this article, and others like it. There are many efforts going into positive reinforcement for women entering the tech industry, but this is a problem that can and should be attacked from multiple angles. One of those angles is educating men about the effects of their actions toward the few women who do brave the tech community. Also, creating assumptions based on gender, race, and other physical qualities has a name: prejudice. While there may be more women in sales roles than technical, assuming that every woman in the tech community is in a sales role until proven (vociferously) otherwise, is sexist. There's nothing wrong with asking what a persons role is, but there are very simple ways to do that without causing offence. For example "What does your role at company XYZ encompass?" Is much nicer than "Are you actually technical?". Men and women in tech need to be sensitive to this issue, because it is an issue which detriments the community as a whole. Better acceptance of women, and their diverse skills and opinions, will strengthen the community as a whole, and this is a goal we should work towards.

by latj 11y ago

tomlock 11y ago

One thing that guys don't tend to realize is how much more often women get asked this question than men. Gamers that are women are generally annoyed when someone exaggeratedly asks "Will you marry meeee". Once, its a funny joke. Happening a dozen times at one event, not so funny. It seems reasonable as a once-off, but the frequency of the statement is what makes it hard to deal with.

zxcvcxz 11y ago
How are men supposed to know this without taking some type of sensitivity class and why should being "ultra sensitive" be a pre-requisite to participate in society?
- tomlock 11y ago
  They could try listening to women about their experiences.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  The answer is in panel 6 here: http://achewood.com/index.php?date=12112007 http://achewood.com/index.php?date=12112007
- lotharbot 11y ago
  most men have a mother. Many have wives, sisters, daughters, aunts, female coworkers, and so on. By listening to them, we can learn what sorts of things they experience, and perhaps learn not to do things to other women that we know would bother our mothers, wives, sisters, daughters, etc.
- dsuth 11y ago
  That's kinda the whole point of the article - to raise awareness of an issue that women face. This is not about taking sensitivity classes, it's about accepting that there is a problem, and doing something about it as part of a community that wants to be more accepting towards women.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

chiaro 11y ago

It was "actually technical" as quoted in the post, as in "really? You?"

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

tptacek 11y ago

She wasn't "asked" if she was technical. The person assumed she wasn't based on her appearance and behaved accordingly. Why twist the narrative to make a point unrelated to the story?

latj 11y ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about. The "Are you actually technical" quote is not part of her anecdote, its in the list of things "men have said straight to my face at tech events" and it is quoted directly as "Are you actually technical". There is not context or narrative that can be twisted.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Sorry, I was fixated on the comment that directly preceded that one (which is obviously much more memorable). I'm sorry for suggesting that the comment twisted the narrative. I'll add, though: "are you actually technical" is an unpleasant way to phrase the question. It implies surprise that she might be.
  - latj 11y ago
    Yeah I agree. I would be annoyed too if people kept saying those things to me.
xyzasdfwer 11y ago
What is wrong with assuming she was not technical? Doesn't tech industry has more technical men than women?
- tptacek 11y ago
  Because the assumption that women at technical events are not technical is one of the things preventing women from joining the field. It's also extremely condescending, and being condescending is rude and unpleasant. So please don't do that.

bpchaps 11y ago

Yeah, I don't really understand this, either. Most of the sales folks (just look at her resume..) I've worked with 'look' like a non-technical person. They absolutely look like they're trying to sell me something - whether it's through mannerisms, appearance, attitude or way of speaking. I'm going to ask them if they're technical if they're giving non-technical vibes as they try to sell me a complicated piece of software. Why wouldn't I? Why does it suddenly become sexist if she's a woman? One of the most impressively technically proficient sysadmins I've ever worked with was an extremely attractive, high-energy woman. She's often not taken seriously because she's a woman. How does she prove her gender isn't a factor? She does good fucking work and never, EVER, brings her gender into it because it's not relevant. That's how gender equality gets solved, dammit. I understand that she's basically being treated as a piece of meat at these places.. But the focus of her article is that she's not being treated seriously as a technical person at a tech conference, despite NOT being a technical person! Fluff and more fluff.

glhaynes 11y ago
How does she prove her gender isn't a factor? She does good fucking work and never, EVER, brings her gender into it because it's not relevant. That's how gender equality gets solved, dammit. Gender equality would be solved if more women were doing good work while being silent about gender inequality? I … don't buy it. Gender equality gets solved by making gender inequality unacceptable. Men are the primary imposers of inequality; it's our responsibility to fix it.
- bpchaps 11y ago
  Sorry, should've been clear. It's one of the MANY ways to make it less acceptable to be shits towards others based on gender. Also, It's "our" responsibility to fix it? Can we let "them" help out with fixing this, too? :)
- GhotiFish 11y ago
  This I don't get. Women can't fix it? Men are just keeping them down by being soooo demeaning and sexist? Are women that powerless and frail that half-assed 1% of the time "micro-aggressions" are enough to keep a whole gender from perusing their dreams? That's BS I say. It's BS that men are "the primary instigators of sexism" and it's BS that "men are required to fix the equality gap".

xyzasdfwer 11y ago

I think she is mixing two categories of comments: One category of comments are sexual in nature and any respectful person would take a strong stance against these. Everybody understands they are just a few bad people. The other category of comments come from not-knowing a person in advance. In such case, people generalize and assume things. Calling such conversations sexist is basically taking political-correctness to the extreme. It will make conversations with women-in-tech difficult. What is lacking is, women-in-tech, like the OP here, not acknowledging the facts before proposing their solutions. Tech industry is male-dominated because more men than women built the industry. Why it was the way is beyond us. We cannot wrong current generation for how the world was before they were born. This is the nature of the world/industry and nobody is at fault. Instead of calling tech industry sexist and turning everything political-correctness debate, women-in-tech need to give it enough time and teach tech to more women so that things will become gender balanced.

dsuth 11y ago
It is difficult to teach tech to women when there is a perceived bias against women in the tech industry. That is the point of this article, and others like it. There are many efforts going into positive reinforcement for women entering the tech industry, but this is a problem that can and should be attacked from multiple angles. One of those angles is educating men about the effects of their actions toward the few women who do brave the tech community. Also, creating assumptions based on gender, race, and other physical qualities has a name: prejudice. While there may be more women in sales roles than technical, assuming that every woman in the tech community is in a sales role until proven (vociferously) otherwise, is sexist. There's nothing wrong with asking what a persons role is, but there are very simple ways to do that without causing offence. For example "What does your role at company XYZ encompass?" Is much nicer than "Are you actually technical?". Men and women in tech need to be sensitive to this issue, because it is an issue which detriments the community as a whole. Better acceptance of women, and their diverse skills and opinions, will strengthen the community as a whole, and this is a goal we should work towards.