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My daughter has been going with me to DEF CON since she was eleven. She's 20 now and this year at DEF CON while she was hanging out at a party with our pen-tes

My daughter has been going with me to DEF CON since she was eleven. She's 20 now and this year at DEF CON while she was hanging out at a party with our pen-test team an individual walked up and asked: "how much for the girl." I'm honestly very glad I wasn't there to hear that. This whole behavior is completely confusing. On what planet is that sort of behavior, even when inebriated even remotely acceptable? It's degrading, unprofessional, and frankly well beyond just being sexist. Maybe the guy just wanted to be punched in the face?

danharaj 11y ago
Look at the gutter comments on this post to find out how 'unprofessional' it is. The problem is that men who act disgusting are present at all levels of the social hierarchy, men in general are concentrated at the top, and crucially, other men don't call out these gross dudes when they see it. There are more men who feel threatened by gender politics enough that they either dissimulate the problem away, protect their shitty colleagues, or rationalize it away than men who actively stand in solidarity with women. Which is astounding to me.
- deciplex 11y ago
  This guy at a minimum deserved a slap in the face and a firm command to get lost, and you don't have to be a third-wave feminist to think that. A lot people are of the mind that so-called "gender politics" solves fewer problems than it creates, and a "with us or against us" attitude doesn't help, either.
  - danharaj 11y ago
    What sort of problems?
    - coldtea 11y ago
      Getting a guy fired for privately telling a "dongle" joke to his male co-worker while at a conference for example. And then costing the woman who snitched on them and told the internet her own job. (true story) This kind of BS over the top reactions, among other things.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        This is another thing that lands on these threads, like clockwork: one time, a woman freaked out over an overheard joke, complained publicly on Twitter, ended up getting someone fired, and was then fired herself. "And you are lynching the negroes." That this has nothing whatsoever to do with the comment thread we're on about someone's daughter being called a prostitute at DEFCON is unimportant; what's important is to deploy as many countermeasures as possible to prevent sincere conversation about harassment.
        deciplex 11y ago
        OP specifically asked for examples though.
    - deciplex 11y ago
      The same as with any other identity politics, really. It makes it really hard to get shit done policy wise, because when you view everything through the lense of identity politics, every disagreement becomes an attack on you personally even if it is just an honest difference of opinion. While some things should be polarizing, probably, identity politics tends to make things needlessly polarizing sometimes, I've found. It is a useful tool definitely, but when it's the only way you approach policy and political action, it often makes you feel really good and validated even while you're failing to achieve a lot of your goals. Going into it any further than this is going to require more specific examples, which I'm not willing to do since it will derail the hell out of this thread. Sorry.
      - idlewords 11y ago
        You derailed a few paragraphs ago.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Well, it's relatively easy to rile up identity politics on the web and place a collective responsibility with a reductionist solution like "calling out" as if it is absolute, more so than following these principles oneself. For what it's worth, though it is convenient to analyze issues under grand models of identity and class warfare (and I've noticed your commenting patterns before as being quite reminiscent to that of a troll, one with far-left tendencies), people ultimately act out of varied individual motives. From my experience "calling people out" thus has a mixed efficacy.
a3voices 11y ago
Maybe the guy just wanted to be punched in the face? Because jokes justify violence?
- ossreality 11y ago
  Are you kidding me here? You've already chimed in with your HIGHLY ORIGINAL south park meme reference... ... and now you're just going to happily claim that harassing someone and asking them how much they'd take for their fucking daughter is a good-faith joke? What planet did y'all grow up on?
- jsmeaton 11y ago
  Touch the fire and get burned. Imply someones daughter is a prostitute to them and I think a violent reaction might not be that uncommon.
  - a3voices 11y ago
    Well some people use that logic to justify killing cartoonists who depict Mohammed.
    - deciplex 11y ago
      You can use modus ponens to justify all kinds of weird shit. What's your point?
      - a3voices 11y ago
        My point is that being offended isn't a valid reason to use violence against someone. If a stranger says something non-threatening and you react by hitting him, you're a danger to the public and should possibly be arrested.
        deciplex 11y ago
        "How much for the girl" is predatory behavior and a threat, actually, and anyway I don't agree with your premise.
mc32 11y ago
It is hard to fathom the grotesque nature of people. It used to be one could count on a certain amount of civility and comportment. Modern society has lost some of its inhibitions and people in general have become old adolescents where their most puerile and despicable behavior is reinforced in popular media as well as niche interest providers. Yes, I defended photography on another part of this thread, as I think it's important to understand its place in society, but that was not an excuse for grovelers and oglers. It's a sad statement on modern society we have descended so low. At least previously we (as a society) put on a mask of modicum, that mask has vanished greatly. Now, we don't care much about hiding our inhibitions our most base instincts. Shaming people doesn't hurt (the cause), but it does not help either. I think there is something bigger at play. Moral compass is something so-called conservatives like to toss around, but I do think we have failed the younger generations in ensuring they have a robust understanding of morality --yes, one, while shifting, we should have some basic understanding of injury, remorse and to quote a long dead chief counsel for the army "decency".
- thegp 11y ago
  I would argue that we as a society have become much more civil and the assholes stick out more as a consequence of that. 30 years ago nobody complained about stuff like this because a)no woman at these events and b)it was absolutely acceptable. And that's without the honey/darling/grope your coworkes time old media tells me about (was that real by the way? I'm from Europe and to young to have had any contact with that )
- robwilliams 11y ago
  >It is hard to fathom the grotesque nature of people. It used to be one could count on a certain amount of civility and comportment. When? Every generation has assholes. Name me a time when people were more civil than now.

danharaj 11y ago

Look at the gutter comments on this post to find out how 'unprofessional' it is. The problem is that men who act disgusting are present at all levels of the social hierarchy, men in general are concentrated at the top, and crucially, other men don't call out these gross dudes when they see it. There are more men who feel threatened by gender politics enough that they either dissimulate the problem away, protect their shitty colleagues, or rationalize it away than men who actively stand in solidarity with women. Which is astounding to me.

deciplex 11y ago
This guy at a minimum deserved a slap in the face and a firm command to get lost, and you don't have to be a third-wave feminist to think that. A lot people are of the mind that so-called "gender politics" solves fewer problems than it creates, and a "with us or against us" attitude doesn't help, either.
- danharaj 11y ago
  What sort of problems?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Getting a guy fired for privately telling a "dongle" joke to his male co-worker while at a conference for example. And then costing the woman who snitched on them and told the internet her own job. (true story) This kind of BS over the top reactions, among other things.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      This is another thing that lands on these threads, like clockwork: one time, a woman freaked out over an overheard joke, complained publicly on Twitter, ended up getting someone fired, and was then fired herself. "And you are lynching the negroes." That this has nothing whatsoever to do with the comment thread we're on about someone's daughter being called a prostitute at DEFCON is unimportant; what's important is to deploy as many countermeasures as possible to prevent sincere conversation about harassment.
      - deciplex 11y ago
        OP specifically asked for examples though.
  - deciplex 11y ago
    The same as with any other identity politics, really. It makes it really hard to get shit done policy wise, because when you view everything through the lense of identity politics, every disagreement becomes an attack on you personally even if it is just an honest difference of opinion. While some things should be polarizing, probably, identity politics tends to make things needlessly polarizing sometimes, I've found. It is a useful tool definitely, but when it's the only way you approach policy and political action, it often makes you feel really good and validated even while you're failing to achieve a lot of your goals. Going into it any further than this is going to require more specific examples, which I'm not willing to do since it will derail the hell out of this thread. Sorry.
    - idlewords 11y ago
      You derailed a few paragraphs ago.
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Well, it's relatively easy to rile up identity politics on the web and place a collective responsibility with a reductionist solution like "calling out" as if it is absolute, more so than following these principles oneself. For what it's worth, though it is convenient to analyze issues under grand models of identity and class warfare (and I've noticed your commenting patterns before as being quite reminiscent to that of a troll, one with far-left tendencies), people ultimately act out of varied individual motives. From my experience "calling people out" thus has a mixed efficacy.

a3voices 11y ago

Maybe the guy just wanted to be punched in the face? Because jokes justify violence?

ossreality 11y ago
Are you kidding me here? You've already chimed in with your HIGHLY ORIGINAL south park meme reference... ... and now you're just going to happily claim that harassing someone and asking them how much they'd take for their fucking daughter is a good-faith joke? What planet did y'all grow up on?
jsmeaton 11y ago
Touch the fire and get burned. Imply someones daughter is a prostitute to them and I think a violent reaction might not be that uncommon.
- a3voices 11y ago
  Well some people use that logic to justify killing cartoonists who depict Mohammed.
  - deciplex 11y ago
    You can use modus ponens to justify all kinds of weird shit. What's your point?
    - a3voices 11y ago
      My point is that being offended isn't a valid reason to use violence against someone. If a stranger says something non-threatening and you react by hitting him, you're a danger to the public and should possibly be arrested.
      - deciplex 11y ago
        "How much for the girl" is predatory behavior and a threat, actually, and anyway I don't agree with your premise.

mc32 11y ago

It is hard to fathom the grotesque nature of people. It used to be one could count on a certain amount of civility and comportment. Modern society has lost some of its inhibitions and people in general have become old adolescents where their most puerile and despicable behavior is reinforced in popular media as well as niche interest providers. Yes, I defended photography on another part of this thread, as I think it's important to understand its place in society, but that was not an excuse for grovelers and oglers. It's a sad statement on modern society we have descended so low. At least previously we (as a society) put on a mask of modicum, that mask has vanished greatly. Now, we don't care much about hiding our inhibitions our most base instincts. Shaming people doesn't hurt (the cause), but it does not help either. I think there is something bigger at play. Moral compass is something so-called conservatives like to toss around, but I do think we have failed the younger generations in ensuring they have a robust understanding of morality --yes, one, while shifting, we should have some basic understanding of injury, remorse and to quote a long dead chief counsel for the army "decency".

thegp 11y ago
I would argue that we as a society have become much more civil and the assholes stick out more as a consequence of that. 30 years ago nobody complained about stuff like this because a)no woman at these events and b)it was absolutely acceptable. And that's without the honey/darling/grope your coworkes time old media tells me about (was that real by the way? I'm from Europe and to young to have had any contact with that )
robwilliams 11y ago
>It is hard to fathom the grotesque nature of people. It used to be one could count on a certain amount of civility and comportment. When? Every generation has assholes. Name me a time when people were more civil than now.