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Things men have actually said to me at tech events
- rattray 11y agoThoughtfully written, concise, and helpful. Thanks!
- PhilWright 11y agoOP: Did you find that the age of the man made a difference? So are older or younger men the worst offenders? I would like to think that older man are worse and the younger generation are more aware and less sexist. But maybe that is not the case.
- buf 11y agoIf 99% of males are decent as the article describes, all this does is creates the illusion that all police officers are racist. It's only news because it's sensational.
- mschuster91 11y ago> It's people being assholes to each other. This. One's freedom ends where another's freedom ends. I don't see anything wrong with asking a member of the opposite gender out for dinner - in fact, going to dinner is a far better socializing experience than at a crammed event - but outright sexual harrassment is totally not cool. edit: yeah, I know it's against the rules to complain on downvoting, but seriously? Up, down, up down. And shit, no one tries to explain why he/she tried to downvote me into oblivion. Where has the discussion culture gone?
- ianseyer 11y agoThis is a terrible idea, and is basically like a cop out towards "I don't want to have to think about this // it happens everywhere so stop talking about it." The community/work atmosphere around tech, and the implications that atmosphere has on acceptance within the tech community, has direct implications for the future of education and work within the field. It's absolutely vital that people (especially women) have a relevant place to discuss these things, so that people who read tech news are not ignorant to the ongoing discrimination and oppression within the industry.
- buf 11y agoIf 99% of males are decent as the article describes, all this does is creates the illusion that all police officers are racist. It's only news because it's sensational.
- ianseyer 11y agoDo you actually believe that 99% of males do not take particular actions against women that could make them feel oppressed in some way?
- blizkreeg 11y agoIf male engineers had to endure similar stuff said to them, I wonder how they'd feel - 'hey nerd', 'are you this socially awkward in every situation?', 'do you shower daily?', 'do you have any hobbies?', and the list goes on. OP: I'm happy that your good experiences outweigh the bad ones.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- PhilWright 11y agoFunnily enough I have noticed that this does actually happen. My current position is at a company that works in the building industry and we often get non-IT members of the company saying stuff like that about IT people. But I don't think really compares to the sexism though. Being in a different department means they do not have any actual control over us and we actually make more money than other departments (not including management positions). So I am sure it does not feel as threating and demeaning as the sexism experienced by woman.
- bpchaps 11y agoIt definitely does. I'm 27, look 20, and work as a senior linux engineer at a relatively high profile trading company. Until people see the work I do, they think I've been hired entirely through nepotism. It's incredibly frustrating, but I'm finally starting to "get used to it".
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- bpchaps 11y agoHuh? I'm talking about my past and current work experiences, working as someone who gets viewed by appearances first, skills second.
- deleted 11y ago
- hitekker 11y agoPossible band aid: a webcam at each booth, recording the entire conference audio/video, which will then managed by the convention/conference organizers. If sexual harassement is noted, the person who was harassed can go to the organizers who can then review the recordings which they can then use as a rationale to blacklist that person at their conference (but not at all). Reasons why this might not be a terrible idea: 1) It's a public place and you are interacting, often times, with complete strangers. While I can't speak for everyone, these social events make me be on my best behavior, which is conveniently the same behavior I would have if I were on camera. 2) By virtue of being handled by the conference organizers, one company won't be singled out. One company recording people is strange, but an accepted practice by a third party would be far more forgivable.
- steckerbrett 11y agoThat's going to be problematic, lots of people at conferences talk in low voice about confidential things. Surely there's better ways to combat harassment than pervasive surveillance.
- patcheudor 11y agoMy daughter has been going with me to DEF CON since she was eleven. She's 20 now and this year at DEF CON while she was hanging out at a party with our pen-test team an individual walked up and asked: "how much for the girl." I'm honestly very glad I wasn't there to hear that. This whole behavior is completely confusing. On what planet is that sort of behavior, even when inebriated even remotely acceptable? It's degrading, unprofessional, and frankly well beyond just being sexist. Maybe the guy just wanted to be punched in the face?
- danharaj 11y agoLook at the gutter comments on this post to find out how 'unprofessional' it is. The problem is that men who act disgusting are present at all levels of the social hierarchy, men in general are concentrated at the top, and crucially, other men don't call out these gross dudes when they see it. There are more men who feel threatened by gender politics enough that they either dissimulate the problem away, protect their shitty colleagues, or rationalize it away than men who actively stand in solidarity with women. Which is astounding to me.
- deciplex 11y agoThis guy at a minimum deserved a slap in the face and a firm command to get lost, and you don't have to be a third-wave feminist to think that. A lot people are of the mind that so-called "gender politics" solves fewer problems than it creates, and a "with us or against us" attitude doesn't help, either.
- danharaj 11y agoWhat sort of problems?
- coldtea 11y agoGetting a guy fired for privately telling a "dongle" joke to his male co-worker while at a conference for example. And then costing the woman who snitched on them and told the internet her own job. (true story) This kind of BS over the top reactions, among other things.
- leeny 11y agoMy personal favorite of the ones that I've gotten... "Normally, when a woman is dressed like that, I'm paying her to whip me." (What I was wearing included but was not limited to a leather jacket and black shoes.)
- dzhiurgis 11y agoIsn't that a self deprecating joke?
- leeny 11y agoSure. But just because something is self-deprecating and a (just barely funny) joke doesn't make it acceptable. Context matters, and this was literally the first thing the guy said to me.
- Archio 11y agoIt's not at all appropriate in a business setting.
- dzhiurgis 11y agoI guess it depends whether you see tech events as business setting or social setting. Also, wouldn't the aforementioned dress code be deemed inappropriate in a business setting?
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y agoIf you're there for work it's business. (and what's so inappropriate about a leather coat and black shoes?)
- jsmeaton 11y ago"Normally when I'm hanging out with someone that looks like you, I'm playing Dungeons and Dragons." Is that purely self-deprecating (assuming playing Dungeons and Dragons is such..)?
- 11y ago
- jordanpg 11y agoOn the other hand, I've worked with an astonishing number of men who live in a state of rather tortured denial of the outsize challenges women face in the workplace. I've even known a couple of women who deny it. It's even more stupefying than those who insist that racism is a solved problem in America. I'm not sure where it comes from. Personal experience, background must be important factors. But it strikes me as a fairly activist, difficult position to take. I think some of these folks think they are just fitting in by voicing denial and anger about patently obvious forms of sexism. A lot of it comes from political group identification, too.
- arthur_pryor 11y ago"It's even more stupefying than those who insist that racism is a solved problem in America." disagree w/ that statement, in that i'd say it's equally stupefying. but yes, otherwise totally agreed.
- jordanpg 11y agoI hear you. It's hard to understand, but at least I can imagine how someone could reach that conclusion. But I've known full well that men had a better deal since I was 10.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- latj 11y agoWhy is it wrong to ask someone if they are technical? Programmers, engineers, scientists go to tech conferences to talk about work, projects, side interests. They dont want to get sucked into a sales pitch. I especially dont understand why this would offend the author- the resume on her website implies that she actually is more of a marketing person / copywriter than a technical person.
- tomlock 11y agoOne thing that guys don't tend to realize is how much more often women get asked this question than men. Gamers that are women are generally annoyed when someone exaggeratedly asks "Will you marry meeee". Once, its a funny joke. Happening a dozen times at one event, not so funny. It seems reasonable as a once-off, but the frequency of the statement is what makes it hard to deal with.
- zxcvcxz 11y agoHow are men supposed to know this without taking some type of sensitivity class and why should being "ultra sensitive" be a pre-requisite to participate in society?
- tomlock 11y agoThey could try listening to women about their experiences.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y agoThe answer is in panel 6 here: http://achewood.com/index.php?date=12112007 http://achewood.com/index.php?date=12112007
- lotharbot 11y agomost men have a mother. Many have wives, sisters, daughters, aunts, female coworkers, and so on. By listening to them, we can learn what sorts of things they experience, and perhaps learn not to do things to other women that we know would bother our mothers, wives, sisters, daughters, etc.
- toolz 11y agoIs this behavior worse than just being around a bunch of guys in general? I'm not condoning the behavior, but we're all animals and sex is a thing - it gets the best of many of us and we end up acting like baboons. I'm curious if the tech industry is actually worse, because I would expect us to behave better considering we actually give it a voice and properly label it as negative behavior.
- steckerbrett 11y agoYes. In my place of work that sort of behavior towards anybody would see you instantly excluded from every social circle, not by regulation just because we have some moral core and empathy. If people are being made uncomfortable by others for any reason, that's a problem.
- kajecounterhack 11y agoI would expect us to behave better considering we actually give it a voice and properly label it as negative behavior. If only this were true. Apparently the greater (male-dominated) culture surrounding technology doesn't dissuade this behavior enough. I'm not condoning the behavior, but we're all animals and sex is a thing - it gets the best of many of us and we end up acting like baboons Despite your disclaimer this still echoes the "boys will be boys" sentiment, one used to justify harm / mistreatment of women by dismissing their actions as part of male nature. This is a lie and needs to change; individuals are responsible for their words, actions, and any harm they cause.
- CedarMadness 11y agoI don't think toolz was trying to say "boys will be boys", I think toolz was saying we should try to fix society, rather than pretend this is only a problem in tech
- kajecounterhack 11y agoI think toolz was saying we should try to fix society, rather than pretend this is only a problem in tech Who's pretending the problem is only in tech? Attacking the problem in our industry is part of fixing society as a whole (it's a subproblem).
- TickleMeHellNo 11y agoSome of the most competent people I've ever worked with have been women, but let's not pretend that _every_ woman is hired solely because she's competent. The author will either have to forgive some men for thinking she's that kind of girl, or nurse that indignation until it destroys her.
- ossreality 11y agoJesus Christ, what is wrong with you assholes? "nurse that indignation until it destroys you" I bet most of the asshole armchair men here couldn't go through even a week of the micro-aggression and outright harassment that women put up with. Seriously, what the actual fuck is wrong with you?
- lghh 11y agoSike. I am a guy and I have never been approached asking something like "did daddy get you this job?". Now, most men are hired because they are competent, but let's not pretend that all men a hired solely because of that. Now ask yourself, why was she approached yet I have not been?
- chronic41 11y agoAre you unattractive by any chance?
- TickleMeHellNo 11y agoTits, bro. Her tits are way better than yours. EDIT: IF UR MAD BRO, I KNO SOME GOOD SURGEONS. EDIT#2: IT'S BECAUSE POWERFUL MEN KNOW THAT REAL POWER IS ABOUT CONTROLLING ACCESS TO PUSSY. (ESPECIALLY ATTRACTIVE PUSSY.) MOST OF YOU DUMB CUCKS DON'T REALIZE THAT, AND I'VE BEEN SHADOWBANNED FOR SAYING IT, BUT IT'S SO TRUE THAT IT HURTS THE BALLS TO CONSIDER.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- tomlock 11y agoSomething important to mention is that the author felt really supported when her co-workers called out bad behavior. If you haven't already, maybe its time to have a discussion about how your coworkers feel about these issues, and if they have been effected. Make them know they are being listened to!
- scottkduncan 11y agoThis is how to bring about a tipping point - get men to recognize and call out sexism. While this kind of behavior is sadly quite commonplace, attitudes and behaviors can change quite quickly. Just think how much more common it was ten years ago to have "gay" as a widespread pejorative - I almost never hear it now. I think the rapid reduction came from straight people recognizing the offense it caused and starting to call out people who used it.
- interpol_p 11y agoI work in a male-dominated office with only two women and have been trying to share these stories with my coworkers at every opportunity. I can see it starting to make a difference. Just the other day one of my male colleagues came up to me and said "I can't believe I used to think like that," referring to a comment where a man justified sexist behaviour by calling it "normal." There is such a long road ahead of us. If you're looking for more stories of difficulties faced by women in tech, a previous colleague of mine wrote this account of her internships and university degree: http://words.samipeachey.com.au/?p=77 http://words.samipeachey.com.au/?p=77
- zxcvcxz 11y agoSexism is normal in our society. The top rated television shows are filled with sexist and off color jokes, but you rarely see the feminists trying to take down The Simpsons. So how can you take them seriously when they seem to be focused on calling all programmers who aren't proactively brigading for their political ideology a "racist" or "sexist" while not paying much attention to the root causes of sexism? The reality is that media from the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc was much more racist/sexist than media today. Society has come a long way. Society is still progressing. Things aren't going to change over night. But the feminists seem to suggest that things are getting worse or are worse now than they've ever been.
- interpol_p 11y agoIn my post I suggested things are getting better, but we still have a long road ahead. It sounds like you agree. Jokes in TV shows are absolutely not what I am referring to. I am referring to situations in which your colleagues — or even your bosses — make value judgments of your person on the basis of gender. I am referring to what the parent article and the article I linked directly confront.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago> But the feminists seem to suggest that things are getting worse or are worse now than they've ever been. I'd guess that it's because the feminists see the progress, and therefore start having hope that women might not be forever stuck with a worse deal than men. And then, once you have hope, the existing situation seems more intolerable than before. It's not worse than it was, it just feels worse, because you now allow yourself to hope for better.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- mc32 11y agoJust a point about "taking pictures without my permission" In public spaces there are few restrictions against this (ex. military zones). In private spaces this can be regulated by the organizer, I believe, but that prohibition must be posted. This is how the "street photography" gender of photography can exist. Now, to be fair, there are regulations against commercial use of photos from "street photography" without permission. There you can sue for compensation if your likeness was used to advertise and sell (selling a book with street photographs does not require permission, as that is not "commercial use", that's to say, it's "art") It becomes an issue if the photographer videographer follows you and thus engages in harassment (in some jurisdictions). Remember that videographer who taunted people at an outdoor restaurant. They had little recourse against him.
- justin66 11y agoI don't think the author was implying that taking one's picture without permission in a public space is illegal, merely that it's rude or weird. Which it often is.
- dllthomas 11y agoSomething doesn't have to be illegal to be rude. As to norms, there is a big difference between someone appearing in a crowd shot or background, and someone being the sole focus of the picture.
- mc32 11y agoThe courts say otherwise see sole focus picture in case of Nussenzweig v. DiCorcia[1]. If it were not possible, we would not have "street photography" we would not have Robert Frank, Cartier-Bresson, Winogrand, Meier or Arbus. Picture in question[2] We also would not have documentary photography. Certainly it can feel rude to us, but the law allows it and moreover the feeling of rudeness comes more from believing we "own" our likelinesses in public spaces, which we do not. So, yes, I could feel intruded upon by a documentary or street photographer, no question, but at the same time, they have the right to take my picture, no question. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nussenzweig_v._DiCorcia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nussenzweig_v._DiCorcia [2]https://wmuphoto.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/nussenzweig-v-dicorcia/ https://wmuphoto.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/nussenzweig-v-dico... If you disagree with the position, post a link to law which states otherwise. There is lots of case law asserting the right of photographers to take pictures unimpeded in public spaces.
- user182394 11y agoMy question is how she knew they were men. Did she ask them how they identified? because I find asking such personal questions at a tech conference VERY offensive.
- nicolewhite 11y agoThis is my experience as well. Often I'll be the most knowledgeable person at our booth (for Neo4j) and people always look to my male coworkers when asking questions. And one of my personal favorites: "So I'm guessing you're in marketing?"
- jsmeaton 11y agoThis behaviour needs to change, it really does. But (ugh, here we go..) this particular instance is probably learned behaviour from past conferences or situations some people have been in. I haven't been to many conferences, but there's been a few times where I've spoken to a woman at a booth just to be passed off to someone else when I've asked technical questions. I'm finding this happens less and less though. Really though, it doesn't hurt to ask the question you want to ask first, even if you do end up having to ask it again of someone else.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- yclept 11y agoIt's funny to me because looking at the resume of the article op, you see she is in marketing.
- ashwinaj 11y agoI don't understand why this is a tech industry issue? I can imagine this being a problem in all industries (esp. finance). Douchebags aren't exclusive to the tech industry.
- beatpanda 11y agoWhy is your first response to get defensive about the tech industry and not to respond to the problem in the post? If its a problem everywhere, fine -- we have a chance to make it less of a problem in the tech industry than everywhere else. Wouldn't that be something?
- ashwinaj 11y agoI'm not defending anyone, my point is that this is a societal problem. How do you propose to change people's thinking? People in the our (tech) industry fight over coding standards, programming languages, frameworks etc.; good luck changing their outdated views on something that's been ingrained for years.
- tptacek 11y agoBecause gender parity is far better in the finance industry than it is in technology, which is unique not merely among all careers but among science and math careers specifically for having a terrible gender imbalance. Sexual harassment happens everywhere, but we care about about it in this field in particular because we are still trying to figure out and repair the imbalance. And, in addition, because sexual harassment of women in a male-dominated field is particularly toxic, due to the power imbalance.
- zxcvcxz 11y agoI don't understand why the emphasis is on the tech community. If this were an automotive convention it would probably be worse. A hansom male at a beauty convention will likely be ogled by some of the women. I also don't understand why feminists rarely attack mass media like the shows they have on Fox and Comedy Central, which are probably much closer to the root cause of "sexism" seeing as they make it seem like casual sexism is okay. It's very hard to take the feminist seriously when their biggest enemy seems to be the 2% of pasty awkward nerds who happen to make a cultural faux pas. They weren't born sexist. They're victims of society. Blaming them is blaming the victim. Most of them probably have not had much interaction with the opposite sex and don't even know how to initiate conversation.
- mcphage 11y ago> I don't understand why the emphasis is on the tech community. Because that's the industry that the author (and presumably, most of us readers) are in. > If this were an automotive convention it would probably be worse. Probably, but like... do you go to automotive conventions? I don't, so what goes on in them is really outside of anything I know about or can change. So... I'm not sure the relevance. > Most of them probably have not had much interaction with the opposite sex and don't even know how to initiate conversation. Well, hopefully some of them will read this article and find out some things not to do.
- chiaro 11y agoDon't take this too critically, but what you wrote gives the impression that you aren't familiar with feminism as it extends beyond the tech sphere. HN is a tech news site, not a feminism one, so the posts you see about feminism here will be naturally related to the former. All those shows you mentioned are criticized.
- PavlovsCat 11y ago> A hansom male at a beauty convention will likely be ogled by some of the women. I'm not handsome, and I don't get "ogled" a lot, but when I do, it NEVER has this slimy, condescending air it too often has when men hit on women. It's either friendly sympathy or friendly lust, and I would assume if I was super handsome, there would be more friendliness, not less. The closest to getting uncomfortable is when someone is into me whom I find very uninteresting; that's just "awkward", and so extremely tame compared to having to wonder whether she is just a bit creepy or maybe capable of rape. When women invite me to somewhere or strike up a conversation, I can just be relaxed without having to keep one eye on the exit. I consider that normal but it's, sorry for saying it, a privilege. It really is. My point is, it's not the "being considered attractive" by itself that offends and hurts people. I dare say everybody likes that, if it's respectful and unassuming, like a genuine compliment without expecting reciprocation or any other rewards. The problem is when it's not.
- colbyaley 11y agoWhy is this getting downvoted by mods?
- nitwit005 11y agoThis suggests improving the ratio, but honestly, if the rate is genuinely 99% good and 1% bad, then the truth may be that you're at a point where you won't notice improvements. Say we make a huge effort and halve the rate of such harassment. That's a change from 99% good to 99.5% good. Will you notice the difference? Maybe, but it's likely you won't. You're still guaranteed to have bad experiences at regular intervals if you go to tech events.
- tomlock 11y agoThis article just plunged down the front page. Calling out the jerks that think this isn't relevant tech material. Bullshit. Tech culture is frequently mentioned. Articles about work-life balance don't get downmodded this much.
- aaron695 11y agoA lot of these articles just create pointless conversations that make people go backwards rather then be productive, it's common to be down-voted because of this. You are already calling people jerks.
- tomlock 11y agoFunnily enough, that seems to be a common reason to suppress discussion of many issues of rights and fairness, whether its been about same-sex marriage or sufferage. And people get called jerks in those discussions, too.
- aaron695 11y ago> And people get called jerks in those discussions, too. Do you think it helps if you believe in a cause to start off by calling people jerks. I feel sorry for you if you do.
- tomlock 11y agoThis isn't the "start" of the cause - this cause and problem has been going on for literally years now. Perhaps you are only just becoming aware of this because of this HN thread, but a lot of people have been fighting this for a long time. It seems like you think people don't have a right to be angry about this problem. I think that shows how much you really care about how it hurts people.
- aaron695 11y agoI care about solutions not others anger. The top comment ATM is about punching someone in the face. Do you think suffrage was solved by childish flame wars or hard work?
- dominotw 11y agoMen are expected to "hit on women" and score. Women just sit there and expect to be approached like a royalty. They value their looks/sexuality so much that its offensive that guy who they deem is unworthy even approached her. Has she ever approached a guy before ? I bet not. Having a reaction to someone approaching you is sexist because it perpetuates the stereotype that you have protect your ultimate gift: your body. So in my book author of this post is a sexist and misogynist.
- glhaynes 11y agoMen are expected to "hit on women" and score. Patriarchy hurts us all. So in my book author of this post is a sexist and misogynist. This is drivel.
- dominotw 11y ago>Patriarchy hurts us all. so we are all mere victims of patriarchy? >This is drivel. Why? Its true. Why is it so offensive if someone asks her out ?
- mcphage 11y ago> Why is it so offensive if someone asks her out ? There are good ways to ask someone out. And there are offensive ways to ask someone out.
- dominotw 11y ago"I don’t want a t-shirt—just a smile." Is offensive ?
- mikeash 11y agoWell yes. It implies that she's somehow obligated to perform such favors, since she's handing out t-shirts presumably as part of some sort of job. Imagine if your bank was handing out free t-shirts and you went in and said, "I don't want a t-shirt, just all the money in your drawer." They'd probably call the police!
- sanoli 11y agoEverytime something like this comes up a portion of men will respond with either "It's a public place, people are free to look at and talk to strangers, etc" or "Men are like that, deal with it." Oh, and also the "It's no big deal" rendered in so many ways. Here's a mental exercize for all the men who think this way: You have to go to a conference, and the whole place is filled with big, muscular, thug-looking men. You walk around and you notice they're all staring at you. Every now and then when you stop, one or two will approach you, and they will do it with that look in their eye. You know, like you're their prison meat. So the huge thug comes up to you and starts some small talk, asks your name, what you do, if you're there by yourself, and then, you know, he says you have a nice little ass, and wouldn't you want to go there in the back with him. He's just talking, you know, didn't touch you or anything. Plus, it's a public place. You're just unconfortable because he is a huge guy, looks like a mma fighter, but, hey, he's just talking to you, saying he wants to have sex with you. No big deal, right? You just deal with him and all the others and won't make a fuss about this behavior, and I'm pretty sure you'll attend all future conferences with a great mood and won't think there's anything wrong with all the thugs wanting to have sex with you. Thugs are like that. No big deal.
- zxcvcxz 11y agoSo all men are prison rapists? Sorry but I don't buy it. Especially not tech nerds. Ever been to an automotive convention? They typically have scantily dressed women posing next to cars. Am I to believe that a bunch of pasty nerds are more intimidating than mechanics? Are you sure you just aren't stereotyping men and that perhaps you may be a little sexist against men?
- sanoli 11y agoWhere did I say they were prison rapists?? Or violent of any kind by the way?!? They just talked, that's all. But if you thought the place I described was so vile that you already labeled the men you imagined as 'prison rapists', then the exercize worked and I see you woldn't attend this conference anymore, though nobody even touched a finger on you. You just felt very unconfortable at the suggestions of sex by intimidating, yet so far harmless people. P.S. I'm male.
- vonklaus 11y agoAs coding and technology become more prestigous it will draw in the top female talent that has been pulled into companies with much more societal respect. Below is a list of a few companies that were built by a female founder/co-founder. The unpopular view that this "problem", will fix itself, is somewhat true in my opinion. There will be a day when a list like the one below doesn't exist, there will be a single one. Females (and everyone really) realize tech. is one of the most important components of the future and there are many shows/movies/media that reflect this societal change. Until then, if you think the world would be better off with more woman in tech, help get young people excited about technology and entrepreneurship. The ecosystem is primarily men who started companies internet companies in the early days, which have splintered into tons of new ventures and startups largely comprised of people from those companies. The list below are great companies (well, a couple have rough patches but what doesn't) and there doesn't need to be a qualifier like "woman" founded. Get out there and kill it, and if you are out there be civil and rational in your appraisal of others. * Theranos, $9B Biotech * Y COmbinator, >$4B VC/Tech * Fanduel, ? Skill Based Wagers * 23 & Me, ? Genetics * Kabam, ~$1B Gaming * CloudFlare, ~$1B Cloud/CDN * NastyGal, ? Clothing
- sarciszewski 11y agoI always feel weird when I read (especially the comments on) stories like this. Hearing folks who assume that, if a woman is at a technical event, she is either incompetent, only there for the sake of her husband, or both, open their mouths is irritating enough to witness as an outsider; I can hardly imagine how annoying it must be to be the recipient of such baseless disrespect. Hell, I almost incited a screaming match at my last job because one of my coworkers, who is a proud Republican, wouldn't shut up about politics and his only criticism of Hillary Clinton wasn't that her opinions would have negative consequences or her logic was poor, but because "she's got kankles". The only reason it didn't escalate is because he ignored me. It still pisses me off to even recall how stupid this was. Maybe I've been fortunate enough to know plenty of great people throughout the years, not all of whom were men, that exuded technical knowledge and practical wisdom. How many infosec folks can, in the subject of cryptography, hold a candle to Dr. Tanja Lange? How many PHP programmers can hope to even approximate the Herculean efforts of Andrea Faulds to make PHP 7 something great? We didn't get to where we are today, in terms of technological progress, because sexist ideas or behaviors have any merit.
- mchahn 11y agoI was at at a conference recently (codeconf for github Atom) and I noticed there were a number of women (30%?). I commented to a women next to me that it was happy that there was such a good turnout of women. (I have been to many conferences where there were none). She said she was there representing women in technology and she did not give me a happy look. I thought it was an improvement. One step at a time.
- Simulacra 11y agoThings women have actually said to me a tech events after I said hello: "I have a boyfriend." "Sorry, I'm waiting for someone." "My husband will be here in a minute." -says nothing, pulls out her phone and pretends she didn't hear me-
- scintill76 11y ago> “He treated you so differently!” he said. “His whole tone changed!” Depending on what was meant by "tone", this could be due to very deeply-ingrained learned sociolinguistic customs. I don't mean that justifies it, but it could be very subconscious, is not specific to "tech", and seems much less offensive than some of the other examples. To whatever extent men adopt a different tone when talking to women, it would probably take quite a lot of conscious concentration to control, and generations to eradicate (possibly never, if they can be picked up again by watching our contemporary media.) So, I guess it's something to keep an eye on and fix where you can, but not so simple as eliminating stuff like "They only let you work here ’cause you’re hot." Edit: tl/dr: If "tone" meant treating her like an idiot/non-technical, bad. If it meant different pitch of voice and body language, not good per se but not that bad either. P.S. Actually, maintaining gender-based differences might be desirable. Women probably don't want to be treated exactly like "one of the guys", right? Modifying your message and presentation based on your audience is a part of effective communication. If it's offending your audience, change that, but maybe it's not a bad starting position.
- anotherevan 11y agoRecollecting a few situations I’ve experiences in the workplace. I remember in my first job out of uni (early 90s) our team was having lunch. I don’t remember the discussion that lead up to it, but one of my fellow male colleagues said there was no such thing as rape, because a women enjoy the sex anyway. The only woman at the table just got up and walked away. I must admit I just completely froze. I was just stunned that someone said something so insanely ignorant. Being a shy young man at the time I really just didn’t know how to react. Afterwards I did go check that my female colleague was okay and express my disbelief at what happened. That incident pretty much made me ready to believe any terrible story about male behaviour. § At a software vendor’s offices for two days of training on their product. Walking out of the training area, through the cubicle farm to use the washroom facilities up the back, and seeing explicit pornographic images being used as desktop wallpapers on employees’ computers. § One office I worked in, a female colleague had a beefcake photo as her desktop wallpaper. Although I felt this was as inappropriate as say, a male employee using a swimsuit photo, nothing was said, by me or anyone else. § At a conference, out getting coffee on a warm day and chatting with another attendee. Four young women in smart business attire, including reasonably tight skirts, walk past. This guy’s focus was completely lossed on the conversation, coffee, sunlight, or me smacking him in the back of the head, while he stared unblinkingly at these women until they went around the corner. Ugh. [1] § Another job working in the city, the building across the alleyway from us was an apartment building, and it appears several of the residents were young, nubile, not fully clothed and forget to close their curtains. Was not uncommon to look up from my desk and see two or three guys standing at the window staring across. They were not actually licking the glass or otherwise being a nuisance, and being a visually oriented young man myself I understood the distraction it was. Still, I’ve always seem to have had more self control then my contemporaries. Perhaps I just have enough blood in my circulatory system to be able to power both brains at the same time. § Same job, Lotus Notes was used for email for the company. This had the feature of replication for offline access and such. Male colleague, who was sharing use of a loptop for email access with a female colleague when they were off-site at the customer’s office, turns to her and asks, “Do you want me to replicate your box?” Absolutely innocent, but a contagious fit of uncontrolled giggles spread around those within earshot. Aside from an observation or two that the enquiry should probably have been phrased differently, nobody made any stupid follow-up comments, and everyone took it in good humour for the unintentional faux pas it was. § Last one, and my favourite. Dropping my librarian wife off at her workplace at the start of the day. The library had just opened and about ten or so people were drifting in. One of her colleagues was clearing the overnight returns chute when she exclaims at the top of her voice, “‘Fantastic Sex,’ I was looking for that last night!” She looks up into the sudden silence were you could hear a pin drop, then goes, “The book! The book! Someone wanted the book!” while waving the titular tome. § [1] That conference was about the same time the “Shit people say to XXX” meme was doing the rounds of the internet. At the time I thought it would be funny to do a “Shit people say to programmers” version where every forth or fifth one was, “Can you fix my computer?” I also thought one on “Shit programmers say to women” where it would just be five minutes of awkward guys staring at womens’ chests would be too distressingly realistic. Apropos?
- lxcid 11y agoHere's the part where I don't get it. Doesn't this happen to other industries, like banking, politic, entertainment, etc? The framing it as “hey tech, we have a sexist problem” is making it sounds like there's no sexist problem in other industry. I'm not supportive of sexism in the industry, but when it is framed that way, a part of me just couldn't bring myself to align with it. We can say, hey sexism is a society issue but we tech industry can do better than others. We proud ourselves as the progressive front runner of civilization, so let's make sure we show it. If you remove [tech] from the title, this article will still make sense, doesn't it?
- framp 11y agoThis happens everywhere. Tech is nothing different.
- melindajb 11y agoThere are a certain percentage of the population who are just assholes. Let's assume for a moment that both men and women are assholes in equal proportion, that say 10% of the population of either gender are assholes. For a 50 person company, 80% male: 40 men total 4 male assholes 10 women 1 woman asshole Take that ratio up to 90% male as many tech conferences are: 45 men of those 45 men, 5 will be assholes, rounding up 5 women 1 woman asshole In that scenario there actually the same number of male assholes as ALL of the women. This is why changing the ratio of male and female matters.
- melindajb 11y agodownvoted. ha. keep it classy, HN.