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Creativity and joy are fantastic qualities that are difficult to quantify on an accountant's spreadsheet. Clients have to be able to budget sufficiently for pro

Creativity and joy are fantastic qualities that are difficult to quantify on an accountant's spreadsheet. Clients have to be able to budget sufficiently for project work, and the only way they can do that is with an estimate. This is how business is done. "Uh..we'll send you a bill when we're done for...like...whatever it costs. I guess?" Isn't going to go over well when responding to a potential clients RFP.

oldmanjay 11y ago
Of course, given the historical fact that traditional project management doesn't work and the estimates are a farce, why should we happily continue doing this cargo cult uselessness?
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  They're not useless. Except sometimes they are. I have to give estimates all the time. They're estimates, but they're in the ballpark. But recently, I had to give an estimate for porting some software to a new environment. I knew it was going to present me with a bunch of obstacles, and I didn't know what the obstacles were, or how long each one would take. I didn't even know how many obstacles there would be. I didn't want to give an estimate for that. They made me give them one anyway. I did, but I knew that no reliance whatsoever could be placed on the estimate. Whereas other tasks, estimates were close to "bet the company on it" solid.
  - knieveltech 11y ago
    When we run into stuff like that at work we budget a set number of hours to breaking the problem up into chunks, researching and prototyping the sticky parts, and then using that information to put together a realistic estimate. We call it a "planning project".
    - lifeisstillgood 11y ago
      That's sensible - and is a way to lose bad clients (not itself a problem). I am not saying project mgmt does not work, I am saying the plan the task, do the task approach is not appropriate for software development, at a given level of granularity. If you ever watch Grand Designs, they start with a design, a plan, a schedule, and it all goes out the window ten minutes later. This is not that being on top of the process will not give you control, but that relying on estimates and plans as a means of control is worthless - and that's for something people have been doing for hundreds of years
- knieveltech 11y ago
  Because "Uh..we'll send you a bill when we're done for...like...whatever it costs. I guess?" Isn't going to go over well when responding to a potential clients RFP. It's that or give them an estimate, unless you have a 3rd way? Also, how did you come to the conclusion that "project management doesn't work" is a historical fact? Also also, if your teams' estimates are a farce you might consider starting to track time spent on projects and build up a base of real world numbers you can use as guidelines for future estimates. It worked wonders for us.

oldmanjay 11y ago

Of course, given the historical fact that traditional project management doesn't work and the estimates are a farce, why should we happily continue doing this cargo cult uselessness?

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
They're not useless. Except sometimes they are. I have to give estimates all the time. They're estimates, but they're in the ballpark. But recently, I had to give an estimate for porting some software to a new environment. I knew it was going to present me with a bunch of obstacles, and I didn't know what the obstacles were, or how long each one would take. I didn't even know how many obstacles there would be. I didn't want to give an estimate for that. They made me give them one anyway. I did, but I knew that no reliance whatsoever could be placed on the estimate. Whereas other tasks, estimates were close to "bet the company on it" solid.
- knieveltech 11y ago
  When we run into stuff like that at work we budget a set number of hours to breaking the problem up into chunks, researching and prototyping the sticky parts, and then using that information to put together a realistic estimate. We call it a "planning project".
  - lifeisstillgood 11y ago
    That's sensible - and is a way to lose bad clients (not itself a problem). I am not saying project mgmt does not work, I am saying the plan the task, do the task approach is not appropriate for software development, at a given level of granularity. If you ever watch Grand Designs, they start with a design, a plan, a schedule, and it all goes out the window ten minutes later. This is not that being on top of the process will not give you control, but that relying on estimates and plans as a means of control is worthless - and that's for something people have been doing for hundreds of years
knieveltech 11y ago
Because "Uh..we'll send you a bill when we're done for...like...whatever it costs. I guess?" Isn't going to go over well when responding to a potential clients RFP. It's that or give them an estimate, unless you have a 3rd way? Also, how did you come to the conclusion that "project management doesn't work" is a historical fact? Also also, if your teams' estimates are a farce you might consider starting to track time spent on projects and build up a base of real world numbers you can use as guidelines for future estimates. It worked wonders for us.