4 ms·

I don't think you're going to get a satisfactory answer to a question that involves convincing a management type of the benefits of using Lisp. The point (or a

by geebee 19y ago

I don't think you're going to get a satisfactory answer to a question that involves convincing a management type of the benefits of using Lisp. The point (or at least the way I understand PG's point) is that you can't convince non-technical management types to use Lisp. This becomes a competitive advantage for a startup where management types don't make decisions. It's part of why small startups can beat larger, better funded competitors where managers force everyone to use Java. They get worse developers, less productivity, and take longer to build a worse product. In short, they lose, and the hackers win. You don't have buy into this view to agree that it is, at least, a terrific thesis, and I think YC was started in part to test this thesis. I should add at this point that I don't know how to code in Lisp. If you ask most programmers what languages they "know how to code in" (never mind if they're experts), Lisp will show up in only a tiny fraction of the answers. Interestingly, you can take this to support or detract from Lisp. You could say "if nobody's using it by now, it must not be any good." But that reminds me of the joke about the economist who tells his kid not to pick up the $20 bill on the sidewalk, because "if it were real, someone would have already picked it up." Mabye Lisp is the $20 that nobody (or at least very few) believes is real. Some day, I swear I'll get started. In college (as a math major) I remember talking to a buddy who was majoring in cog sci trying to convince me that Lisp was a great language, and that I really should take a look at it. I was dismissive. If it were so great, why were we using C++ in all my math classes... -- oh, another thing to add hiring - will I be able to find talented people to work on the codebase? A management type probably won't be able to. This option is only available to founders who 1) can do the work themselves, and/or 2) know people who can do the work. Especially if I am not located in a startup hub. Again, fairly unlikely. The idea is that the founders are already part of a community of good programmers, so they most likely live in a place where you can find more good programmers

bayareaguy 19y ago
If it were so great, why were we using C++ in all my math classes... If MIT had released Macsyma under an open source license, I believe you probably would not have been.
mixmax 19y ago
I know the argument about noone but techies being able to see the advantages of using lisp, but I think it puts hackers on a piedestal where they don't belong. Basically the argument implies that management types won't use lisp because they don't understand it. Well they don't understand java either. Or C++. What they do understand though is finding the fastest and cheapest way to a product - that is what they do for a living. If lisp was so great then surely some smart manager would have noticed that "hey look over there, they have 3 guys working on something that we have 30 guys working on - and they are doing better" And management is all about getting the most value for the least resources. If you think of managers as the Dilbertesque pointy haired boss, then sure. But I think you (and PG) grossly underestimate the intelligence of management, and what it is that they do.
- pchristensen 19y ago
  I think an open minded boss (assuming his hands aren't tied by someone above him) would entertain Lisp for a pilot or internal project if: 1) you could show good examples of successful projects done by comparable teams 2) you could demonstrate the ability to hire/train people to develop/maintain it Am I being too optimistic? I put in lots of qualifiers to make it more realistic.
  - mixmax 19y ago
    >assuming his hands aren't tied by someone above him That is probably often the problem. Also since nowadays almost all software has to interface with other software there is probably a case of Nash equilibrium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium (this other software we have to talk to is written in java, so let's write this piece of software in java too)
  - geebee 19y ago
    Eh, maybe. If the Lisp programmers are truly talented, and this is truly a contrarian play, then you might have to let go of the comparable project/team requirement. As for hiring people to develop and maintain... well, this is probably why it doesn't work for the usual boss/employee relationship. The employee may quit a job. But if the employee is a founder or has tons and tons of equity, he'd be quitting on himself. He will go to the mat to save the company. He will bust a vessel in his eye before he'll let it fail. Yes, he may end up sprawled out on the mat with a broken eye vessel, but that's the price of freedom, right? ;)
pchristensen 19y ago
hiring - I think if you're willing to hire fresh college grads (like Joel does), you'll be a lot better off. If you're near a school with prominent Schemers (UofU, Northeastern, Indiana, etc), then students are probably more open to it. Heck, students are much more open to anything than older professionals.

by geebee 19y ago

bayareaguy 19y ago

If it were so great, why were we using C++ in all my math classes... If MIT had released Macsyma under an open source license, I believe you probably would not have been.

mixmax 19y ago

I know the argument about noone but techies being able to see the advantages of using lisp, but I think it puts hackers on a piedestal where they don't belong. Basically the argument implies that management types won't use lisp because they don't understand it. Well they don't understand java either. Or C++. What they do understand though is finding the fastest and cheapest way to a product - that is what they do for a living. If lisp was so great then surely some smart manager would have noticed that "hey look over there, they have 3 guys working on something that we have 30 guys working on - and they are doing better" And management is all about getting the most value for the least resources. If you think of managers as the Dilbertesque pointy haired boss, then sure. But I think you (and PG) grossly underestimate the intelligence of management, and what it is that they do.

pchristensen 19y ago
I think an open minded boss (assuming his hands aren't tied by someone above him) would entertain Lisp for a pilot or internal project if: 1) you could show good examples of successful projects done by comparable teams 2) you could demonstrate the ability to hire/train people to develop/maintain it Am I being too optimistic? I put in lots of qualifiers to make it more realistic.
- mixmax 19y ago
  >assuming his hands aren't tied by someone above him That is probably often the problem. Also since nowadays almost all software has to interface with other software there is probably a case of Nash equilibrium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium (this other software we have to talk to is written in java, so let's write this piece of software in java too)
- geebee 19y ago
  Eh, maybe. If the Lisp programmers are truly talented, and this is truly a contrarian play, then you might have to let go of the comparable project/team requirement. As for hiring people to develop and maintain... well, this is probably why it doesn't work for the usual boss/employee relationship. The employee may quit a job. But if the employee is a founder or has tons and tons of equity, he'd be quitting on himself. He will go to the mat to save the company. He will bust a vessel in his eye before he'll let it fail. Yes, he may end up sprawled out on the mat with a broken eye vessel, but that's the price of freedom, right? ;)

pchristensen 19y ago

hiring - I think if you're willing to hire fresh college grads (like Joel does), you'll be a lot better off. If you're near a school with prominent Schemers (UofU, Northeastern, Indiana, etc), then students are probably more open to it. Heck, students are much more open to anything than older professionals.