9 ms·

Just Enough Bitcoin for Ethereum

44 points by ConsenSys 11y ago

aaron-lebo 11y ago
I watched Ethereum for several months after the initial announcement and was really excited about it. I know the network went live recently and it surprises me how little it's been discussed at places like HN. How are things going as far as tech, adoption, etc for Ethereum for those in the know?
- steckerbrett 11y ago
  What did you expect to be able to do with it, exactly?
  - Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago
    I'm interested in it, mainly as a tool of regulatory arbitrage. I chiefly find it interesting as a means of making decentralized prediction markets. Our governments don't seem to want to allow the innovation. However, if we can get a decentralized Prediction market liquid and running, then I think there will be significant pressure for the government to legalize centralized prediction markets, which will be much more efficient.
    - steckerbrett 11y ago
      Why does Ethereum help, and why do you believe Ethereum is invulnerable to the law?
      - Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago
        It allows you to build incentive structures that are not centrally controlled. There is no server to raid. This comes at the cost of enormous scaling issues. However,it looks like it will be able to handle a market with about $500 million in volume per year - at this point I hope the advantages of prediction markets will be clear enough that centralized markets will be made legal. Centralized markets are vastly preferable in most respects.
    - adrianmacneil 11y ago
      You might be interested in http://www.augur.net/ http://www.augur.net/. Although, I believe it uses its own native token, rather than being built directly on top of bitcoin or ethereum.
      - Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago
        Augur is built directly on Ethereum. Truthcoin will be making its own chain. I don't care who wins, and to be honest I don't give either a very high chance. I really really think prediction markets should exist though, So I applaud both efforts. One real big problem is nobody wants to bet using shady highly volatile currency like Bitcoin or Ether. I'd much prefer USD markets, Vitalik has some ideas about making stable coins that track USD. Hopefully that works out.
        drdeca 11y ago
        the DAI project (originally eDollar, which is now intended to be built using DAI) which tracks a value which I think is like, some basket of different currencies, is being worked on. I don't really understand the mechanism by which it is meant to track the price of the basket of currencies, but I haven't seen many criticisms of it?
      - tonysakich 11y ago
        Hey thanks for sharing our project on this post! Just wanted to clear something up from what you said. Augur's native token is not what is used to create markets, Augur's token is Called REP (short for Reputation) and holders of the token actually serve as reporters that serve as the basis of our decentralized oracle system. We created a few resources to explain how REP works including how REP holders are rewarded for reporting the truth/punished for reporting lies. We created a short two minute animated video to explain this process you can check out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCms-snzHk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCms-snzHk4. Additionally there is a great resource going into much further detail about Reputation as well as an infographic to visually illustrate the process here: http://www.augur.net/blog/what-is-reputation http://www.augur.net/blog/what-is-reputation Finally feel free to reach out if you have any other questions. The Augur Alpha is out at http://demo.augur.net http://demo.augur.net and our code is on github at http://github.com/augurproject http://github.com/augurproject
- mannykannot 11y ago
  I am curious how one goes about verifying that these "trustless transactions of arbitrary (turing-complete!) complexity" will have the behavior that you expect (as a participant) or intend (as an author) for them to have, and that they are proof from subversion by a malicious counter- or third party. After all, this is not exactly a solved problem anywhere else Turing-complete complexity is employed, and it would seem to nullify the point of trustlessness if you are relying on someone else's word on this matter.
  - drdeca 11y ago
    Well, the compiled code is available, and if they provide the source code, you can verify that it compiles to the code on chain (or, you can analyze the code on chain without the source code of the contract, but that is harder). The source code for the contract can be made to have a proof of correctness in it, or, as it is probably not all that long, if you look at the source code long enough you can be sufficiently convinced that it runs how you expect it to. Regarding the problems with turing completeness, any transaction is guaranteed to finish within a particular number of steps, because the transaction includes an amount of "gas", which puts a limit to how many steps the contract will run. If it runs out of gas before finishing, all the changes in the state are reverted (but the person still pays the gas cost). If it finishes, then the extra "gas" is returned. (the transaction specifies some "gas cost", which is how much ether per gas or gas per ether (idr) , and some amount of ether, which is the max cost the transaction is allowed to take. There aren't "gas balances", any "gas" that is transferred just is ether at the end. Its just a unit of how much computation, and the gas price is how much they are willing to pay per amount of computation. I feel like I didn't explain this well...) Checking that the contracts were run correctly is done by anyone verifying the block which contains the contract call. If the miner runs the contract incorrectly, then the people verifying the block will not accept the block as valid, so people won't mine on the block, so it wont end up in the main chain, so the miner will not receive anything from mining the block, and what happens in the wrong execution wont effect anything. I'm not sure if this explanation has been very clear, but I hope it has been clear enough. I can try again if it isn't though.
    - Retra 11y ago
LukeHoersten 11y ago
Bitcoin is a solution. Ethereum is an experiment. Both noble pursuits.
- fragsworth 11y ago
  That's glossing over quite a lot of details.
  - LukeHoersten 11y ago
    Definitely a generalization but I think that's how it's viewed by many from 30k ft. I should have made it clearer that I was making an observation about a perception not my own views.
wanderfowl 11y ago
Etherium sounds like a great idea, and a great approach. But I'm afraid it's going to end up like GPG: Technically awesome, strong, capable, and useful - but completely out of reach of most of the people you'd want to use it with. Every time I read a "Getting started with Ethereum" guide which involves 7 steps just to buy Bitcoin (from a site nobody's heard of) and then set up a wallet, I watch the number of potential users dropping like a rock. I hope very much that it succeeds enough to justify its learning curve, as it's an interesting idea. But I suspect that outside of a few very small markets where it offers the ability to do something completely impossible with any other method, having an ethereum interface for your product or service will be roughly equivalent to GPG signing all your emails: People in the know weren't that concerned anyways, and nobody else knows enough to care.
- d23 11y ago
  Someone really has to get a simple proof of concept application made that any dummy can understand and run on their own. I'm a developer that bought ethereum, and even after reading their materials after the launch I couldn't be bothered with trying to get it running or understanding it. That doesn't bode well for the long-term success of the project.
  - nullz 11y ago
    There are a few projects working on this. One problem is key management and giving the app a connection to the blockchain. If you do key management in the webapp and read from the blockchain via a centralized API, thats not much of an improvement over existing systems. Ethereum core's solution to this is a special browser, but it is still under development. I'm working on a project[0] that takes this on, but is still a couple months out from a public beta. Its a bit of a hack but it manages a zero-install solution by having a sort of browser-in-browser that intercepts transaction signing requests and provides access to blockchain data. Can't wait to get it out there. [0]: https://metamask.io/ https://metamask.io/
- CyberDildonics 11y ago
  Or Freenet or full disk encryption or security tokens or...
otl1248 11y ago
Is this a press release?
rabbyte 11y ago
I'm investing and developing a product on Ethereum, not affiliated with the project or developers, so I'll give my sense of things. We're in an era of rapid experimentation. It feels a bit like a shared developer box without any libs or tooling so people are busy working out the best way to approach common problems. I know it sounds like marketing but it does remind me of the early days of the web, like 95, before the web was serious business. It's all toys and gizmos, the hacker equivalents to water ripple effects, with frameworks coming in to help people build more interesting and production-quality things. Very basic questions persist such as how to best store large data files (ipfs looking like the clear winner), how to reference them, how to design a currency, how to avoid designs that are too stiff or get stuck in a state where they can't be easily updated, how to express an application model in smart contract form, how to best represent a user account, etc. If that sounds fun, jump in, if you were wanting something that matched the hype, wait a few months. Apps on Ethereum can be as expressive and polished as the apps you use today, and can even be designed just as centralized as the apps you use today, but with properties you would typically think of only belonging to Bitcoin.

44 points by ConsenSys 11y ago

I watched Ethereum for several months after the initial announcement and was really excited about it. I know the network went live recently and it surprises me how little it's been discussed at places like HN. How are things going as far as tech, adoption, etc for Ethereum for those in the know?

steckerbrett 11y ago
What did you expect to be able to do with it, exactly?
- Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago
  I'm interested in it, mainly as a tool of regulatory arbitrage. I chiefly find it interesting as a means of making decentralized prediction markets. Our governments don't seem to want to allow the innovation. However, if we can get a decentralized Prediction market liquid and running, then I think there will be significant pressure for the government to legalize centralized prediction markets, which will be much more efficient.
  - steckerbrett 11y ago
    Why does Ethereum help, and why do you believe Ethereum is invulnerable to the law?
    - Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago
      It allows you to build incentive structures that are not centrally controlled. There is no server to raid. This comes at the cost of enormous scaling issues. However,it looks like it will be able to handle a market with about $500 million in volume per year - at this point I hope the advantages of prediction markets will be clear enough that centralized markets will be made legal. Centralized markets are vastly preferable in most respects.
  - adrianmacneil 11y ago
    You might be interested in http://www.augur.net/ http://www.augur.net/. Although, I believe it uses its own native token, rather than being built directly on top of bitcoin or ethereum.
    - Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago
      Augur is built directly on Ethereum. Truthcoin will be making its own chain. I don't care who wins, and to be honest I don't give either a very high chance. I really really think prediction markets should exist though, So I applaud both efforts. One real big problem is nobody wants to bet using shady highly volatile currency like Bitcoin or Ether. I'd much prefer USD markets, Vitalik has some ideas about making stable coins that track USD. Hopefully that works out.
      - drdeca 11y ago
        the DAI project (originally eDollar, which is now intended to be built using DAI) which tracks a value which I think is like, some basket of different currencies, is being worked on. I don't really understand the mechanism by which it is meant to track the price of the basket of currencies, but I haven't seen many criticisms of it?
    - tonysakich 11y ago
      Hey thanks for sharing our project on this post! Just wanted to clear something up from what you said. Augur's native token is not what is used to create markets, Augur's token is Called REP (short for Reputation) and holders of the token actually serve as reporters that serve as the basis of our decentralized oracle system. We created a few resources to explain how REP works including how REP holders are rewarded for reporting the truth/punished for reporting lies. We created a short two minute animated video to explain this process you can check out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCms-snzHk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCms-snzHk4. Additionally there is a great resource going into much further detail about Reputation as well as an infographic to visually illustrate the process here: http://www.augur.net/blog/what-is-reputation http://www.augur.net/blog/what-is-reputation Finally feel free to reach out if you have any other questions. The Augur Alpha is out at http://demo.augur.net http://demo.augur.net and our code is on github at http://github.com/augurproject http://github.com/augurproject
mannykannot 11y ago
I am curious how one goes about verifying that these "trustless transactions of arbitrary (turing-complete!) complexity" will have the behavior that you expect (as a participant) or intend (as an author) for them to have, and that they are proof from subversion by a malicious counter- or third party. After all, this is not exactly a solved problem anywhere else Turing-complete complexity is employed, and it would seem to nullify the point of trustlessness if you are relying on someone else's word on this matter.
- drdeca 11y ago
  Well, the compiled code is available, and if they provide the source code, you can verify that it compiles to the code on chain (or, you can analyze the code on chain without the source code of the contract, but that is harder). The source code for the contract can be made to have a proof of correctness in it, or, as it is probably not all that long, if you look at the source code long enough you can be sufficiently convinced that it runs how you expect it to. Regarding the problems with turing completeness, any transaction is guaranteed to finish within a particular number of steps, because the transaction includes an amount of "gas", which puts a limit to how many steps the contract will run. If it runs out of gas before finishing, all the changes in the state are reverted (but the person still pays the gas cost). If it finishes, then the extra "gas" is returned. (the transaction specifies some "gas cost", which is how much ether per gas or gas per ether (idr) , and some amount of ether, which is the max cost the transaction is allowed to take. There aren't "gas balances", any "gas" that is transferred just is ether at the end. Its just a unit of how much computation, and the gas price is how much they are willing to pay per amount of computation. I feel like I didn't explain this well...) Checking that the contracts were run correctly is done by anyone verifying the block which contains the contract call. If the miner runs the contract incorrectly, then the people verifying the block will not accept the block as valid, so people won't mine on the block, so it wont end up in the main chain, so the miner will not receive anything from mining the block, and what happens in the wrong execution wont effect anything. I'm not sure if this explanation has been very clear, but I hope it has been clear enough. I can try again if it isn't though.
  - Retra 11y ago

LukeHoersten 11y ago

Bitcoin is a solution. Ethereum is an experiment. Both noble pursuits.

fragsworth 11y ago
That's glossing over quite a lot of details.
- LukeHoersten 11y ago
  Definitely a generalization but I think that's how it's viewed by many from 30k ft. I should have made it clearer that I was making an observation about a perception not my own views.

wanderfowl 11y ago

Etherium sounds like a great idea, and a great approach. But I'm afraid it's going to end up like GPG: Technically awesome, strong, capable, and useful - but completely out of reach of most of the people you'd want to use it with. Every time I read a "Getting started with Ethereum" guide which involves 7 steps just to buy Bitcoin (from a site nobody's heard of) and then set up a wallet, I watch the number of potential users dropping like a rock. I hope very much that it succeeds enough to justify its learning curve, as it's an interesting idea. But I suspect that outside of a few very small markets where it offers the ability to do something completely impossible with any other method, having an ethereum interface for your product or service will be roughly equivalent to GPG signing all your emails: People in the know weren't that concerned anyways, and nobody else knows enough to care.

d23 11y ago
Someone really has to get a simple proof of concept application made that any dummy can understand and run on their own. I'm a developer that bought ethereum, and even after reading their materials after the launch I couldn't be bothered with trying to get it running or understanding it. That doesn't bode well for the long-term success of the project.
- nullz 11y ago
  There are a few projects working on this. One problem is key management and giving the app a connection to the blockchain. If you do key management in the webapp and read from the blockchain via a centralized API, thats not much of an improvement over existing systems. Ethereum core's solution to this is a special browser, but it is still under development. I'm working on a project[0] that takes this on, but is still a couple months out from a public beta. Its a bit of a hack but it manages a zero-install solution by having a sort of browser-in-browser that intercepts transaction signing requests and provides access to blockchain data. Can't wait to get it out there. [0]: https://metamask.io/ https://metamask.io/
CyberDildonics 11y ago
Or Freenet or full disk encryption or security tokens or...

otl1248 11y ago

Is this a press release?

rabbyte 11y ago

I'm investing and developing a product on Ethereum, not affiliated with the project or developers, so I'll give my sense of things. We're in an era of rapid experimentation. It feels a bit like a shared developer box without any libs or tooling so people are busy working out the best way to approach common problems. I know it sounds like marketing but it does remind me of the early days of the web, like 95, before the web was serious business. It's all toys and gizmos, the hacker equivalents to water ripple effects, with frameworks coming in to help people build more interesting and production-quality things. Very basic questions persist such as how to best store large data files (ipfs looking like the clear winner), how to reference them, how to design a currency, how to avoid designs that are too stiff or get stuck in a state where they can't be easily updated, how to express an application model in smart contract form, how to best represent a user account, etc. If that sounds fun, jump in, if you were wanting something that matched the hype, wait a few months. Apps on Ethereum can be as expressive and polished as the apps you use today, and can even be designed just as centralized as the apps you use today, but with properties you would typically think of only belonging to Bitcoin.