9 ms·

Estonia Wants to Collect the DNA of All Its Citizens

41 points by quotha 11y ago

zxexz 11y ago
Interesting. I do worry about the security implications, especially after watching this talk[0] about the security of Estonia's e-voting system. The government does not seem to have a wonderful sense of how to handle information securely, and does not take to criticism of its security protocols kindly. Here[1] is a tweet from the Estonian CIO in response to questioning about the video. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY_pHvhE4os https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY_pHvhE4os [1] https://twitter.com/taavikotka/status/612281286011568128 https://twitter.com/taavikotka/status/612281286011568128
geofft 11y ago
This is the same government who can't remember that RSA keys generally use positive numbers? https://crbug.com/532048 https://crbug.com/532048 The idea in theory is interesting, but for something even more high-profile than national identity cards, please hire some folks who can triple-check your work....
- steckerbrett 11y ago
  Looks like they screwed up the DER encoding more than the actual cryptography, incredibly stupid but understandable.
jevinskie 11y ago
I didn't see anywhere in the article mention the ability (or lack of) to use DNA for criminal prosecution. Does anybody have more information about that?
- vonklaus 11y ago
  "Estonian Human Genes Research Act governs the activities of the biobanking project: It establishes anonymity in clinical research, enables donors to decide which studies they want to participate in, and gives donors full control over who has access to their data. By default, a donor’s doctor is the only other person who can look at his or her genetic information through the portal" In Estonia, if you meant relative to this article, the DNA is anonymous and it is implied unusable in court. If you are referring to the recent article about invalidity of DNA evidence in court cases, IIRC it was procedural but I couldn't find much more on it, and I too would be interested.
SmokyBourbon 11y ago
The United States had the opposite plan during the Clinton administration.
vonklaus 11y ago
THe article notes ~$5K to sequence a genome, it sounds like we are pretty close to ~$1K genome sequence[0] going into production. This is a great thing. The privacy concerns surrounding this topic are very real and very complicated. It took me a long time to make up my own mind, however, I am convinved this is a great step forward. Having access to the sourcecode of 8 Billion github repos, if you had the technology to process the data, would make you quite good at fixing bugs so to speak. The value of a genome will be quite high in the future, and if we allow the data sets to be public this will cut out many IP issues. Anonymizing the data is fundamental, as is an open process and total transparency around collection, storage and the resulting sequence. All this data needs to be public and free. The value of rare genomic anomolies will be evident in the near future, and having public data is a way to combat unethical testing or information siloing. [0]http://www.nature.com/news/is-the-1-000-genome-for-real-1.14530 http://www.nature.com/news/is-the-1-000-genome-for-real-1.14...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- NhanH 11y ago
  Can you elaborate on what do you think would be the great step forward, and what is the pros to counter all the cons?
  - vonklaus 11y ago
    > Can you elaborate on what do you think would be the great step forward? As someone with little knowledge of the field or the science involved, my ideas are largely borrowed from others much smarter than myself. Steve Jurvetson, a VC from DFJ who regularly talks about this field, engineering solutions through evolution, and Gordon Moore. Craig Venter was a fundamental force in sequencing the entire human genome this research made companies like Anne Wojcicki's 23AndMe possible. They are the people who will likely provide the true merit of this endeavor. My thoughts: * Early diagnosis. This is one of the most obvious ones. With companies like theranos providing quick testing equiptment and the price of sequencing plummeting, having gentic evidence to compare for risk factors and real-time blood tests, the ability to diagnose things early would be amazing. * Cures. Broadly, the ability to read, write and interpret genetic sequences would allow for personalized medicine and curing genetic illnesses one was predisposed to. * Adaptation. If we were able to have access to a dataset so massive, we were able to uderstand and curate genes. Outside of basic gene therapy and medacine we could actively enhance humans. This could possibly provide electronic interface with our own wetware, the extension of life, or otherwise change aspects of the human condition that were not desirable. * Creation. This is controversial, so I will leave it there. There are so many ways even with current technology that would provide positive things if we had this data and the tools to analyze it. I am excited for this. Similar to AI which will bifurcate between extinction or utopia, this has quite a large upside but also some substantial negatives.
wildlogic 11y ago
Does this apply to e-Estonians as well?
logn 11y ago
About 75 years ago, Nazis occupied Estonia and exterminated Jews. I don't think it's wise to keep a population's DNA on file.
- mahouse 11y ago
  ...what?
  - Somestuff12 11y ago
    They are still doing some non-violent ethnic cleansing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_alien%27s_passport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_alien%27s_passport
  - logn 11y ago
    DNA could be used for nefarious purposes. If eugenicists like the Nazis could have stolen Estonia's DNA records, they could have more efficiently committed genocide. I can't find the story now, but there was one country which kept on file the religion of each citizen. Nazis gained control of the building with those records. Some rebels were successful in burning those files, saving many people's lives.
  - task_queue 11y ago
    The historical record is full of key themes and tropes: our warlike behavior as whole, bias for tribalism, hatred and discrimination of minorities and society's propensity to rally behind those things. To ignore the recent abuse of such data is ignoring the potential abuse DNA collection could enable.
draugadrotten 11y ago
Sweden already does this . Since 1974 all newborns have been DNA tested and stored in the "PKU" bio register. http://vavnad.se/cms/sites/Biobanken/home/in-english.html http://vavnad.se/cms/sites/Biobanken/home/in-english.html It's also been used to catch at least one murderer of a celebrity, but generally is not used for crime such as rape cases.
- botten 11y ago
  "a celeberity" = The foreign minister

41 points by quotha 11y ago

zxexz 11y ago

Interesting. I do worry about the security implications, especially after watching this talk[0] about the security of Estonia's e-voting system. The government does not seem to have a wonderful sense of how to handle information securely, and does not take to criticism of its security protocols kindly. Here[1] is a tweet from the Estonian CIO in response to questioning about the video. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY_pHvhE4os https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY_pHvhE4os [1] https://twitter.com/taavikotka/status/612281286011568128 https://twitter.com/taavikotka/status/612281286011568128

geofft 11y ago

This is the same government who can't remember that RSA keys generally use positive numbers? https://crbug.com/532048 https://crbug.com/532048 The idea in theory is interesting, but for something even more high-profile than national identity cards, please hire some folks who can triple-check your work....

steckerbrett 11y ago
Looks like they screwed up the DER encoding more than the actual cryptography, incredibly stupid but understandable.

jevinskie 11y ago

I didn't see anywhere in the article mention the ability (or lack of) to use DNA for criminal prosecution. Does anybody have more information about that?

vonklaus 11y ago
"Estonian Human Genes Research Act governs the activities of the biobanking project: It establishes anonymity in clinical research, enables donors to decide which studies they want to participate in, and gives donors full control over who has access to their data. By default, a donor’s doctor is the only other person who can look at his or her genetic information through the portal" In Estonia, if you meant relative to this article, the DNA is anonymous and it is implied unusable in court. If you are referring to the recent article about invalidity of DNA evidence in court cases, IIRC it was procedural but I couldn't find much more on it, and I too would be interested.

SmokyBourbon 11y ago

The United States had the opposite plan during the Clinton administration.

vonklaus 11y ago

THe article notes ~$5K to sequence a genome, it sounds like we are pretty close to ~$1K genome sequence[0] going into production. This is a great thing. The privacy concerns surrounding this topic are very real and very complicated. It took me a long time to make up my own mind, however, I am convinved this is a great step forward. Having access to the sourcecode of 8 Billion github repos, if you had the technology to process the data, would make you quite good at fixing bugs so to speak. The value of a genome will be quite high in the future, and if we allow the data sets to be public this will cut out many IP issues. Anonymizing the data is fundamental, as is an open process and total transparency around collection, storage and the resulting sequence. All this data needs to be public and free. The value of rare genomic anomolies will be evident in the near future, and having public data is a way to combat unethical testing or information siloing. [0]http://www.nature.com/news/is-the-1-000-genome-for-real-1.14530 http://www.nature.com/news/is-the-1-000-genome-for-real-1.14...

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
NhanH 11y ago
Can you elaborate on what do you think would be the great step forward, and what is the pros to counter all the cons?
- vonklaus 11y ago
  > Can you elaborate on what do you think would be the great step forward? As someone with little knowledge of the field or the science involved, my ideas are largely borrowed from others much smarter than myself. Steve Jurvetson, a VC from DFJ who regularly talks about this field, engineering solutions through evolution, and Gordon Moore. Craig Venter was a fundamental force in sequencing the entire human genome this research made companies like Anne Wojcicki's 23AndMe possible. They are the people who will likely provide the true merit of this endeavor. My thoughts: * Early diagnosis. This is one of the most obvious ones. With companies like theranos providing quick testing equiptment and the price of sequencing plummeting, having gentic evidence to compare for risk factors and real-time blood tests, the ability to diagnose things early would be amazing. * Cures. Broadly, the ability to read, write and interpret genetic sequences would allow for personalized medicine and curing genetic illnesses one was predisposed to. * Adaptation. If we were able to have access to a dataset so massive, we were able to uderstand and curate genes. Outside of basic gene therapy and medacine we could actively enhance humans. This could possibly provide electronic interface with our own wetware, the extension of life, or otherwise change aspects of the human condition that were not desirable. * Creation. This is controversial, so I will leave it there. There are so many ways even with current technology that would provide positive things if we had this data and the tools to analyze it. I am excited for this. Similar to AI which will bifurcate between extinction or utopia, this has quite a large upside but also some substantial negatives.

wildlogic 11y ago

Does this apply to e-Estonians as well?

logn 11y ago

About 75 years ago, Nazis occupied Estonia and exterminated Jews. I don't think it's wise to keep a population's DNA on file.

mahouse 11y ago
...what?
- Somestuff12 11y ago
  They are still doing some non-violent ethnic cleansing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_alien%27s_passport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_alien%27s_passport
- logn 11y ago
  DNA could be used for nefarious purposes. If eugenicists like the Nazis could have stolen Estonia's DNA records, they could have more efficiently committed genocide. I can't find the story now, but there was one country which kept on file the religion of each citizen. Nazis gained control of the building with those records. Some rebels were successful in burning those files, saving many people's lives.
- task_queue 11y ago
  The historical record is full of key themes and tropes: our warlike behavior as whole, bias for tribalism, hatred and discrimination of minorities and society's propensity to rally behind those things. To ignore the recent abuse of such data is ignoring the potential abuse DNA collection could enable.

draugadrotten 11y ago

Sweden already does this . Since 1974 all newborns have been DNA tested and stored in the "PKU" bio register. http://vavnad.se/cms/sites/Biobanken/home/in-english.html http://vavnad.se/cms/sites/Biobanken/home/in-english.html It's also been used to catch at least one murderer of a celebrity, but generally is not used for crime such as rape cases.

botten 11y ago
"a celeberity" = The foreign minister