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Don't underestimate how much effort and devotion to the lifestyle it takes. Most of us just want a "turnkey" lifestyle, buying whatever on a whim and expecting

Don't underestimate how much effort and devotion to the lifestyle it takes. Most of us just want a "turnkey" lifestyle, buying whatever on a whim and expecting it to just work (plug-in gadgets, packaged foods), with even our "staples" coming in such perfect condition (box of nails from Home Depot, beautiful fruits at Whole Foods, etc.). To the contrary, off-the-grid requires devotion to the act of surviving from basics, and integrating technology therein takes additional effort/patience/tolerance. It can certainly be internalized to the point of being "normal" and "comfortable", but still requires that focus - not sleeping in, driving to work, then grabbing a frozen pizza on the way home 'cuz you didn't have time to maintain the garden. I rant on this because of a taste this weekend, trying with mixed-to-poor results to get my BioLite Camp Stove (otherwise highly recommended) burning a good fire suitable for charging electronics via its built-in thermocouple generator (using the compact solar panels was pointless given cloud cover), and even now a separate solar self-charging battery is sitting on top of my car recouping from the draining usage on the trip (oops, left something on). I grew up in a semi-self-sufficient family, growing food and heating with wood et al. Seemed easyish then, but in retrospect my folks put a LOT of work into making it work smoothly. Going completely off-grid and still staying connected does seem a desirable state (a la "first world amusement" and "TEOTWAKI prepared"), but yikes it's a lot of work - moreso if your immediate companions aren't wholly devoted as well.

Johnny555 11y ago
I looked at that same stove and decided it's not worth the effort -- they claim 2W sustained power, which is a bit less than a standard 500mA USB computer port can provide. At that rate, it would take hours to charge a phone, and I don't want to tend a fire for hours. So instead I bring along a 5000MaH battery pack (weight is around 5 ounces), and a 15W folding solar panel that generates enough power to charge even on overcast days (though certainly much less than 15W). (the solar panel is not light, it's around 1.5lbs)
derefr 11y ago
> It can certainly be internalized to the point of being "normal" and "comfortable", but still requires that focus I would argue that there's a feedback loop in this particular case between the requirement of such effort, and the ability to generate it. The same sort of flow-state you get from e.g. playing Minecraft, also exists in the real-world equivalent of survivalist bootstrapping. Our brains were evolved to be stimulated by the survival tasks of our ancestral environments: moreso foraging and hunting than farming, but even farming still comes with very natural-to-us acts like crafting tools, clearing land, building shelter, herding animals, etc. I think a lot of the dissonance between the modern values of convenience and efficiency/laziness, and the agricultural-era idea of a "work ethic", was simply that certain kinds of things that are "a LOT of work" just feel natural to humans, in ways where they're still work (and drudgery, at that, sometimes), but not nearly as draining to one's long-term motivation as modern "abstract" work is. Nobody ever got suffered from "burn-out" making nails to build their own house—which is amazing when you think about the level of toil involved. The sheer direct intuitiveness of the goal being pursued—make exactly enough nails to get a roof over one's head and keep out the cold—overrides a lot of the the feeling of repetitiveness of the base-level action. (A dystopia belonging in an SMBC comic: a nail factory that used to be staffed with robots, but which is now staffed with humans wearing VR goggles having the times of their lives making nails because they believe they're doing it for direct survival reasons. Then the nails are used to build the crappy box-like apartments they pay for with their wages and go home to.)
- romaniv 11y ago
  Great comment. I would like to add that there is a world of difference between drudgery of tactile work and drudgery in office work. Tactile work is more engaging and less stressful. It does not require constant multitasking or context switching. You concentrate. You also build up a certain skill at it, which allows you to feel good about what you're doing. (I.e. you go from just making nails to making good mails quickly.) In many ways I find low-level manual tasks to feel more like "creative" office work.
- shostack 11y ago
  While not a developer, I do spend more or less my entire day staring at one or more screens. My home has a yard that needs to be completely re-landscaped, and the manual labor for that has been such a rewarding and peaceful activity for me which speaks a lot to your point. That said, I realized while buying supplies to build a wooden raised bed this past weekend that basic things like "screwing some boards together to build a raised bed" almost seems like an overwhelming task when I first approach it. I was stunned by this because when I was a teenager I was very crafty and always tinkered with things and would have thought nothing of this. The only thing I can think of is that in this day and age of everything being simplified to a few mouse clicks or screen taps, everything else becomes a monumental chore by comparison. In any event, I have my parts, and now I'm excited to put them together. And I even get to indulge the digital side of me as well by modeling out my yard in SketchUp so I can make sure I like the layout before I build things. I'd also note that something as stupid simple as "putting in a path," once you learn how to do it, is incredibly rewarding to see with the finished product. I never felt that digging dirt was stressful--just a good workout. And the end result is something that gives me a nice sense of satisfaction every time I look at it.
  - lfowles 11y ago
    > The only thing I can think of is that in this day and age of everything being simplified to a few mouse clicks or screen taps, everything else becomes a monumental chore by comparison. Or that now you know what the tradeoffs are and that there is a whole set of things you don't know you don't know! My teen self would have rather built the raised garden bed than used it, so he wouldn't have planned for long term effects (will this weather all seasons well? will these railroad ties leech into the soil and kill me via my veggies? etc)
sliverstorm 11y ago
It's not just about effort, but time as well. "Turnkey" convenience gives you time to spend on other things. For example, the more time I spend surviving on the basics, the less time I can invest in the charity I volunteer with.
copsarebastards 11y ago
> I rant on this because of a taste this weekend, trying with mixed-to-poor results to get my BioLite Camp Stove (otherwise highly recommended) burning a good fire suitable for charging electronics via its built-in thermocouple generator (using the compact solar panels was pointless given cloud cover), and even now a separate solar self-charging battery is sitting on top of my car recouping from the draining usage on the trip (oops, left something on). Yeah, this is the problem with trying to adopt new technologies. I like the idea of BioLite (and I have one) but it's just not a mature enough tech to support a lifestyle. I met the BioLite guys and they seem pretty proficient at using it to power their devices and cook, but I haven't been able to make it work with my routine. For when I'm traveling via automobile, I've got a Honda 2000i Inverter Generator and a portable propane grill which do all of what the BioLite does and more. They're larger and less environmentally friendly, but they always work easily, and that's important. When I'm hiking I use a JetBoil and having my phone in airplane mode most of the time usually gets me from outlet to outlet without problems.
coldtea 11y ago
>To the contrary, off-the-grid requires devotion to the act of surviving from basics, and integrating technology therein takes additional effort/patience/tolerance. This kind of off-the-grid described in the article isn't far from standard everyday life amenities 4-6 decades ago...

Johnny555 11y ago

I looked at that same stove and decided it's not worth the effort -- they claim 2W sustained power, which is a bit less than a standard 500mA USB computer port can provide. At that rate, it would take hours to charge a phone, and I don't want to tend a fire for hours. So instead I bring along a 5000MaH battery pack (weight is around 5 ounces), and a 15W folding solar panel that generates enough power to charge even on overcast days (though certainly much less than 15W). (the solar panel is not light, it's around 1.5lbs)

derefr 11y ago

> It can certainly be internalized to the point of being "normal" and "comfortable", but still requires that focus I would argue that there's a feedback loop in this particular case between the requirement of such effort, and the ability to generate it. The same sort of flow-state you get from e.g. playing Minecraft, also exists in the real-world equivalent of survivalist bootstrapping. Our brains were evolved to be stimulated by the survival tasks of our ancestral environments: moreso foraging and hunting than farming, but even farming still comes with very natural-to-us acts like crafting tools, clearing land, building shelter, herding animals, etc. I think a lot of the dissonance between the modern values of convenience and efficiency/laziness, and the agricultural-era idea of a "work ethic", was simply that certain kinds of things that are "a LOT of work" just feel natural to humans, in ways where they're still work (and drudgery, at that, sometimes), but not nearly as draining to one's long-term motivation as modern "abstract" work is. Nobody ever got suffered from "burn-out" making nails to build their own house—which is amazing when you think about the level of toil involved. The sheer direct intuitiveness of the goal being pursued—make exactly enough nails to get a roof over one's head and keep out the cold—overrides a lot of the the feeling of repetitiveness of the base-level action. (A dystopia belonging in an SMBC comic: a nail factory that used to be staffed with robots, but which is now staffed with humans wearing VR goggles having the times of their lives making nails because they believe they're doing it for direct survival reasons. Then the nails are used to build the crappy box-like apartments they pay for with their wages and go home to.)

romaniv 11y ago
Great comment. I would like to add that there is a world of difference between drudgery of tactile work and drudgery in office work. Tactile work is more engaging and less stressful. It does not require constant multitasking or context switching. You concentrate. You also build up a certain skill at it, which allows you to feel good about what you're doing. (I.e. you go from just making nails to making good mails quickly.) In many ways I find low-level manual tasks to feel more like "creative" office work.
shostack 11y ago
While not a developer, I do spend more or less my entire day staring at one or more screens. My home has a yard that needs to be completely re-landscaped, and the manual labor for that has been such a rewarding and peaceful activity for me which speaks a lot to your point. That said, I realized while buying supplies to build a wooden raised bed this past weekend that basic things like "screwing some boards together to build a raised bed" almost seems like an overwhelming task when I first approach it. I was stunned by this because when I was a teenager I was very crafty and always tinkered with things and would have thought nothing of this. The only thing I can think of is that in this day and age of everything being simplified to a few mouse clicks or screen taps, everything else becomes a monumental chore by comparison. In any event, I have my parts, and now I'm excited to put them together. And I even get to indulge the digital side of me as well by modeling out my yard in SketchUp so I can make sure I like the layout before I build things. I'd also note that something as stupid simple as "putting in a path," once you learn how to do it, is incredibly rewarding to see with the finished product. I never felt that digging dirt was stressful--just a good workout. And the end result is something that gives me a nice sense of satisfaction every time I look at it.
- lfowles 11y ago
  > The only thing I can think of is that in this day and age of everything being simplified to a few mouse clicks or screen taps, everything else becomes a monumental chore by comparison. Or that now you know what the tradeoffs are and that there is a whole set of things you don't know you don't know! My teen self would have rather built the raised garden bed than used it, so he wouldn't have planned for long term effects (will this weather all seasons well? will these railroad ties leech into the soil and kill me via my veggies? etc)

sliverstorm 11y ago

It's not just about effort, but time as well. "Turnkey" convenience gives you time to spend on other things. For example, the more time I spend surviving on the basics, the less time I can invest in the charity I volunteer with.

copsarebastards 11y ago

> I rant on this because of a taste this weekend, trying with mixed-to-poor results to get my BioLite Camp Stove (otherwise highly recommended) burning a good fire suitable for charging electronics via its built-in thermocouple generator (using the compact solar panels was pointless given cloud cover), and even now a separate solar self-charging battery is sitting on top of my car recouping from the draining usage on the trip (oops, left something on). Yeah, this is the problem with trying to adopt new technologies. I like the idea of BioLite (and I have one) but it's just not a mature enough tech to support a lifestyle. I met the BioLite guys and they seem pretty proficient at using it to power their devices and cook, but I haven't been able to make it work with my routine. For when I'm traveling via automobile, I've got a Honda 2000i Inverter Generator and a portable propane grill which do all of what the BioLite does and more. They're larger and less environmentally friendly, but they always work easily, and that's important. When I'm hiking I use a JetBoil and having my phone in airplane mode most of the time usually gets me from outlet to outlet without problems.

coldtea 11y ago

>To the contrary, off-the-grid requires devotion to the act of surviving from basics, and integrating technology therein takes additional effort/patience/tolerance. This kind of off-the-grid described in the article isn't far from standard everyday life amenities 4-6 decades ago...