5 ms·

So whats the limit on how much society should spend to seek justice if someone raped you?

by polack 11y ago

sarciszewski 11y ago
Allegedly. Who knows if it's true or not?
- polack 11y ago
  Yes, that's why I wrote "seek justice".
  - sarciszewski 11y ago
    You also used the clause, "if someone raped you", stated as if it were a fact and not an allegation. Or, at least, that's how it reads to me. If you posed the question, "How much would you want society to spend if someone raped you?" it would have carried a different connotation. But by asking "whats the limit on how much society should spend..." implies society knows for a fact that you were raped by someone. Sorry if it's not the meaning you intended, but you made it sound like we should all believe Assange is guilty. I don't believe that's a reasonable conclusion.
    - nolok 11y ago
      Oh please, you absolutely understood what he really meant and are arguing over the wrong usage of words rather than the point he was making. I believe such argument have a place and time, but at least dissociate them from the original point ...
      - sarciszewski 11y ago
        > Oh please, you absolutely understood what he really meant and are arguing over the wrong usage of words rather than the point he was making. First, I'm not entirely sure this person is a he. In the absence of an indicator of which gender a person is, I typically don't assume. "Oh please, you absolutely understood" is not a justifiable statement here. What knowledge do you possess of what I do or do not understand? And I'm not being pedantic here: I actually though that 'polack was trying to weasel in the suggestion that Assange is guilty without proving beyond a shadow of a doubt (which no Internet commentor really should be able to, barring a huge evidence mis-handling by the Swedish investigators).
        nolok 11y ago
        The masculine form is traditionally used as the unmarked form when the gender is not known, it is not assuming any gender. And again, arguing over that while it is not even anywhere near the point we're discussing makes no sense. Although we lately have seen the emergence of gender neutral pronoun, it is rather unpleasing to use "he/she" is an informal discussion forum when the unmarked form meaning is well understood and has been for centuries. As for the rest, what was meant higher up was that from the justice point of view at this stage of a case, whether the rape happened or not is not known nor required to make the decision, a complaint has been made and it is the job of the state offices (both police and justice) to ensure the case can go through unimpeded. As such, the question asked clearly meant "if you make an accusation of rape against you, how much should the state be willing to pay to see the case go through if the person you accuse makes it difficult / what is the maximal amount after which they should stop". Now, maybe english is not your first language, because this was sincerely very clear and evident that this is what was meant in the message. Whether the person was really raped or whether that person makes it up does not change that amount, since the state does not know at that point and the amount is spent in order to see the case go through to figure it out.
        sarciszewski 11y ago
        > Although we lately have seen the emergence of gender neutral pronoun, it is rather unpleasing to use "he/she" is an informal discussion forum when the unmarked form meaning is well understood and has been for centuries. Singular "they" works wonders. > Now, maybe english is not your first language Only non-programming language, actually. > because this was sincerely very clear and evident that this is what was meant in the message. I disagree, and that was the entirety of my point here.
gsnedders 11y ago
From the point-of-view of the Metropolitan Police, he's wanted for two things: extradition for a criminal prosecution under a EAW (to Sweden), and for arrest under Section 7 of the Bail Act (for failing to surrender himself to the police as required by the conditions of bail).
venomsnake 11y ago
Send the bill to Sweden then. It is their problem. Edit: Can someone explain the downvote - the UK government spend 12M GBP to monitor a person that Sweden wanted. It is up to Sweden to decide if such prodigious waste of resources is warranted.
appleflaxen 11y ago
I'm not sure if you are being facetious, but that's actually exactly the right question to ask. Not only would it be great to explicitly know the exact number, but that number should be the same no matter who the victim (or perpetrator) is.
- polack 11y ago
  I was actually being serious and I agree with you that it would be good with a defined number.
  - minority-one 11y ago
    If you're being serious then I'll give you a serious answer. Exempli gratia, let's pretend I was raped. I should be able to reify my victimhood and sell it to a lawyer, thereby transferring to that lawyer the right to extract compensation from the perpetrator. Now there's a market for it and the price is whatever a lawyer is willing to pay. You will quickly see a market form around it. This was done in Medieval Iceland for longer than the United States has been a country, so mind your glass ceiling when criticizing this idea.
    - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
      Did you perhaps mean "monetise" and not "refiy"? Incidentally, you've just created a market for rape, and persuaded rich people that rape is just fine because they can afford pay off most victims. For very rich people, that means practically all possible victims. For poor people, that means practically all possible victims because they can't afford to pay anyone anyway. Is this really a workable view of criminality and justice?
      - minority-one 11y ago
        I really meant reify, as in "turn an abstract thing into a marketable thing". Monetize would mean something else. > Is this really a workable view of criminality and justice? It worked for 400 years in Medieval Iceland. If you are interested in debating this I'd like to hear from you why you think that what you say would happen if this was in place, in fact did not happen when this was in place.
rwmj 11y ago
There wasn't any need to guard the Ecuadorian embassy, now or then. He couldn't have travelled out of the country without being arrested at the port or airport, and could have been picked up easily if he'd stayed at a house or hotel anywhere inside the UK. People who are far less well known are routinely arrested by the police for failure to turn up in court. There was no need for this expensive 24 hour guard.
- detaro 11y ago
  I think they fear that he has well-connected and organized supporters, something most other people fleeing don't have. And he has the benefit of time: he doesn't have to move until everything is perfect, because there is no way of catching up to him where is right now. If you don't know when your target is going to move, how do you stop him from leaving UK waters before you even realize he isn't there anymore? Monitor every single boat moving on the Thames, 24/7? Search every ship leaving your jurisdiction? Getting out probably isn't easy, but I would be surprised if there weren't quite a few people/organizations capable of doing it.
icebraining 11y ago
Smartly: as much as it can be afforded. Stupidly: 0. This outcome was predictable from day 1, yet they still spent £12M. It wasn't to seek justice, it was to maintain appearances.
realusername 11y ago
I think the charges were dropped by the girls a long time ago, it's just justice paperwork now if I remember.
- icebraining 11y ago
  I don't know about Sweden, but at least here in Portugal rape is what is called a "public crime", that is, there is no need for charges to be pressed for it to be prosecuted.
  - talmand 11y ago
    I'm curious. Is this that all that is needed to be prosecuted for a public crime such as this is for someone to accuse you? Whether they are connected to the alleged crime or not? Whether there is a victim or not? For that matter, how can one be prosecuted with no charges? I think I may be misunderstanding the context of the terms.
    - olavk 11y ago
      If you commit a murder, the victim is dead and can't raise charges. You can still be prosecuted.
      - talmand 11y ago
        Although I think that's an excellent example of a reason for the state to press charges, I think it's rather obvious that's a different matter. I would imagine one could argue that the victim in the case is potentially the state itself. I'm thinking more along the lines that there is a clear cut victim of the alleged crime that refuses to file charges and the state does it in their stead. It would seem that the lack of charges from the alleged victim is the first defense of the accused, even the victim disagrees with the state.
        icebraining 11y ago
        Of course, if the victim claims the crime didn't happen, it obviously makes it harder to prove it did, and the prosecutor will take that into account when deciding if the case should be brought to trial. But there are important reasons why one wouldn't press charges despite having suffered the crime; a few of the obvious ones include fear of retaliation, being unwilling to be in the presence of the perpetrator(s), lying to protect them, etc. And despite that refusal, there still may there be enough evidence to prove it happened.
lawnchair_larry 11y ago
What does rape have to do with this situation?

So whats the limit on how much society should spend to seek justice if someone raped you?

by polack 11y ago

So whats the limit on how much society should spend to seek justice if someone raped you?

sarciszewski 11y ago

Allegedly. Who knows if it's true or not?

polack 11y ago
Yes, that's why I wrote "seek justice".
- sarciszewski 11y ago
  You also used the clause, "if someone raped you", stated as if it were a fact and not an allegation. Or, at least, that's how it reads to me. If you posed the question, "How much would you want society to spend if someone raped you?" it would have carried a different connotation. But by asking "whats the limit on how much society should spend..." implies society knows for a fact that you were raped by someone. Sorry if it's not the meaning you intended, but you made it sound like we should all believe Assange is guilty. I don't believe that's a reasonable conclusion.
  - nolok 11y ago
    Oh please, you absolutely understood what he really meant and are arguing over the wrong usage of words rather than the point he was making. I believe such argument have a place and time, but at least dissociate them from the original point ...
    - sarciszewski 11y ago
      > Oh please, you absolutely understood what he really meant and are arguing over the wrong usage of words rather than the point he was making. First, I'm not entirely sure this person is a he. In the absence of an indicator of which gender a person is, I typically don't assume. "Oh please, you absolutely understood" is not a justifiable statement here. What knowledge do you possess of what I do or do not understand? And I'm not being pedantic here: I actually though that 'polack was trying to weasel in the suggestion that Assange is guilty without proving beyond a shadow of a doubt (which no Internet commentor really should be able to, barring a huge evidence mis-handling by the Swedish investigators).
      - nolok 11y ago
        The masculine form is traditionally used as the unmarked form when the gender is not known, it is not assuming any gender. And again, arguing over that while it is not even anywhere near the point we're discussing makes no sense. Although we lately have seen the emergence of gender neutral pronoun, it is rather unpleasing to use "he/she" is an informal discussion forum when the unmarked form meaning is well understood and has been for centuries. As for the rest, what was meant higher up was that from the justice point of view at this stage of a case, whether the rape happened or not is not known nor required to make the decision, a complaint has been made and it is the job of the state offices (both police and justice) to ensure the case can go through unimpeded. As such, the question asked clearly meant "if you make an accusation of rape against you, how much should the state be willing to pay to see the case go through if the person you accuse makes it difficult / what is the maximal amount after which they should stop". Now, maybe english is not your first language, because this was sincerely very clear and evident that this is what was meant in the message. Whether the person was really raped or whether that person makes it up does not change that amount, since the state does not know at that point and the amount is spent in order to see the case go through to figure it out.
        sarciszewski 11y ago
        > Although we lately have seen the emergence of gender neutral pronoun, it is rather unpleasing to use "he/she" is an informal discussion forum when the unmarked form meaning is well understood and has been for centuries. Singular "they" works wonders. > Now, maybe english is not your first language Only non-programming language, actually. > because this was sincerely very clear and evident that this is what was meant in the message. I disagree, and that was the entirety of my point here.

gsnedders 11y ago

From the point-of-view of the Metropolitan Police, he's wanted for two things: extradition for a criminal prosecution under a EAW (to Sweden), and for arrest under Section 7 of the Bail Act (for failing to surrender himself to the police as required by the conditions of bail).

venomsnake 11y ago

Send the bill to Sweden then. It is their problem. Edit: Can someone explain the downvote - the UK government spend 12M GBP to monitor a person that Sweden wanted. It is up to Sweden to decide if such prodigious waste of resources is warranted.

appleflaxen 11y ago

I'm not sure if you are being facetious, but that's actually exactly the right question to ask. Not only would it be great to explicitly know the exact number, but that number should be the same no matter who the victim (or perpetrator) is.

polack 11y ago
I was actually being serious and I agree with you that it would be good with a defined number.
- minority-one 11y ago
  If you're being serious then I'll give you a serious answer. Exempli gratia, let's pretend I was raped. I should be able to reify my victimhood and sell it to a lawyer, thereby transferring to that lawyer the right to extract compensation from the perpetrator. Now there's a market for it and the price is whatever a lawyer is willing to pay. You will quickly see a market form around it. This was done in Medieval Iceland for longer than the United States has been a country, so mind your glass ceiling when criticizing this idea.
  - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    Did you perhaps mean "monetise" and not "refiy"? Incidentally, you've just created a market for rape, and persuaded rich people that rape is just fine because they can afford pay off most victims. For very rich people, that means practically all possible victims. For poor people, that means practically all possible victims because they can't afford to pay anyone anyway. Is this really a workable view of criminality and justice?
    - minority-one 11y ago
      I really meant reify, as in "turn an abstract thing into a marketable thing". Monetize would mean something else. > Is this really a workable view of criminality and justice? It worked for 400 years in Medieval Iceland. If you are interested in debating this I'd like to hear from you why you think that what you say would happen if this was in place, in fact did not happen when this was in place.

rwmj 11y ago

There wasn't any need to guard the Ecuadorian embassy, now or then. He couldn't have travelled out of the country without being arrested at the port or airport, and could have been picked up easily if he'd stayed at a house or hotel anywhere inside the UK. People who are far less well known are routinely arrested by the police for failure to turn up in court. There was no need for this expensive 24 hour guard.

detaro 11y ago
I think they fear that he has well-connected and organized supporters, something most other people fleeing don't have. And he has the benefit of time: he doesn't have to move until everything is perfect, because there is no way of catching up to him where is right now. If you don't know when your target is going to move, how do you stop him from leaving UK waters before you even realize he isn't there anymore? Monitor every single boat moving on the Thames, 24/7? Search every ship leaving your jurisdiction? Getting out probably isn't easy, but I would be surprised if there weren't quite a few people/organizations capable of doing it.

icebraining 11y ago

Smartly: as much as it can be afforded. Stupidly: 0. This outcome was predictable from day 1, yet they still spent £12M. It wasn't to seek justice, it was to maintain appearances.

realusername 11y ago

I think the charges were dropped by the girls a long time ago, it's just justice paperwork now if I remember.

icebraining 11y ago
I don't know about Sweden, but at least here in Portugal rape is what is called a "public crime", that is, there is no need for charges to be pressed for it to be prosecuted.
- talmand 11y ago
  I'm curious. Is this that all that is needed to be prosecuted for a public crime such as this is for someone to accuse you? Whether they are connected to the alleged crime or not? Whether there is a victim or not? For that matter, how can one be prosecuted with no charges? I think I may be misunderstanding the context of the terms.
  - olavk 11y ago
    If you commit a murder, the victim is dead and can't raise charges. You can still be prosecuted.
    - talmand 11y ago
      Although I think that's an excellent example of a reason for the state to press charges, I think it's rather obvious that's a different matter. I would imagine one could argue that the victim in the case is potentially the state itself. I'm thinking more along the lines that there is a clear cut victim of the alleged crime that refuses to file charges and the state does it in their stead. It would seem that the lack of charges from the alleged victim is the first defense of the accused, even the victim disagrees with the state.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Of course, if the victim claims the crime didn't happen, it obviously makes it harder to prove it did, and the prosecutor will take that into account when deciding if the case should be brought to trial. But there are important reasons why one wouldn't press charges despite having suffered the crime; a few of the obvious ones include fear of retaliation, being unwilling to be in the presence of the perpetrator(s), lying to protect them, etc. And despite that refusal, there still may there be enough evidence to prove it happened.

lawnchair_larry 11y ago

What does rape have to do with this situation?