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Police stop guarding embassy refuge of Julian Assange
- christop 11y agoAnd from the Met Police's point of view: http://news.met.police.uk/news/covert-plan-at-ecuadorian-embassy-strengthened-after-removing-dedicated-guards-132799 http://news.met.police.uk/news/covert-plan-at-ecuadorian-emb...
- yc1010 11y ago"The estimated cost of the police presence is more than £12m." So who should get fired for such a waste of police resources?
- belorn 11y agoDepend on the estimated gains in improved diplomatic relationships with nations that has a political interest in this case.
- polack 11y agoSo whats the limit on how much society should spend to seek justice if someone raped you?
- sarciszewski 11y agoAllegedly. Who knows if it's true or not?
- polack 11y agoYes, that's why I wrote "seek justice".
- sarciszewski 11y agoYou also used the clause, "if someone raped you", stated as if it were a fact and not an allegation. Or, at least, that's how it reads to me. If you posed the question, "How much would you want society to spend if someone raped you?" it would have carried a different connotation. But by asking "whats the limit on how much society should spend..." implies society knows for a fact that you were raped by someone. Sorry if it's not the meaning you intended, but you made it sound like we should all believe Assange is guilty. I don't believe that's a reasonable conclusion.
- nolok 11y agoOh please, you absolutely understood what he really meant and are arguing over the wrong usage of words rather than the point he was making. I believe such argument have a place and time, but at least dissociate them from the original point ...
- sarciszewski 11y ago> Oh please, you absolutely understood what he really meant and are arguing over the wrong usage of words rather than the point he was making. First, I'm not entirely sure this person is a he. In the absence of an indicator of which gender a person is, I typically don't assume. "Oh please, you absolutely understood" is not a justifiable statement here. What knowledge do you possess of what I do or do not understand? And I'm not being pedantic here: I actually though that 'polack was trying to weasel in the suggestion that Assange is guilty without proving beyond a shadow of a doubt (which no Internet commentor really should be able to, barring a huge evidence mis-handling by the Swedish investigators).
- gsnedders 11y agoFrom the point-of-view of the Metropolitan Police, he's wanted for two things: extradition for a criminal prosecution under a EAW (to Sweden), and for arrest under Section 7 of the Bail Act (for failing to surrender himself to the police as required by the conditions of bail).
- venomsnake 11y agoSend the bill to Sweden then. It is their problem. Edit: Can someone explain the downvote - the UK government spend 12M GBP to monitor a person that Sweden wanted. It is up to Sweden to decide if such prodigious waste of resources is warranted.
- appleflaxen 11y agoI'm not sure if you are being facetious, but that's actually exactly the right question to ask. Not only would it be great to explicitly know the exact number, but that number should be the same no matter who the victim (or perpetrator) is.
- polack 11y agoI was actually being serious and I agree with you that it would be good with a defined number.
- minority-one 11y agoIf you're being serious then I'll give you a serious answer. Exempli gratia, let's pretend I was raped. I should be able to reify my victimhood and sell it to a lawyer, thereby transferring to that lawyer the right to extract compensation from the perpetrator. Now there's a market for it and the price is whatever a lawyer is willing to pay. You will quickly see a market form around it. This was done in Medieval Iceland for longer than the United States has been a country, so mind your glass ceiling when criticizing this idea.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y agoDid you perhaps mean "monetise" and not "refiy"? Incidentally, you've just created a market for rape, and persuaded rich people that rape is just fine because they can afford pay off most victims. For very rich people, that means practically all possible victims. For poor people, that means practically all possible victims because they can't afford to pay anyone anyway. Is this really a workable view of criminality and justice?
- minority-one 11y agoI really meant reify, as in "turn an abstract thing into a marketable thing". Monetize would mean something else. > Is this really a workable view of criminality and justice? It worked for 400 years in Medieval Iceland. If you are interested in debating this I'd like to hear from you why you think that what you say would happen if this was in place, in fact did not happen when this was in place.
- rwmj 11y agoThere wasn't any need to guard the Ecuadorian embassy, now or then. He couldn't have travelled out of the country without being arrested at the port or airport, and could have been picked up easily if he'd stayed at a house or hotel anywhere inside the UK. People who are far less well known are routinely arrested by the police for failure to turn up in court. There was no need for this expensive 24 hour guard.
- detaro 11y agoI think they fear that he has well-connected and organized supporters, something most other people fleeing don't have. And he has the benefit of time: he doesn't have to move until everything is perfect, because there is no way of catching up to him where is right now. If you don't know when your target is going to move, how do you stop him from leaving UK waters before you even realize he isn't there anymore? Monitor every single boat moving on the Thames, 24/7? Search every ship leaving your jurisdiction? Getting out probably isn't easy, but I would be surprised if there weren't quite a few people/organizations capable of doing it.
- icebraining 11y agoSmartly: as much as it can be afforded. Stupidly: 0. This outcome was predictable from day 1, yet they still spent £12M. It wasn't to seek justice, it was to maintain appearances.
- realusername 11y agoI think the charges were dropped by the girls a long time ago, it's just justice paperwork now if I remember.
- icebraining 11y agoI don't know about Sweden, but at least here in Portugal rape is what is called a "public crime", that is, there is no need for charges to be pressed for it to be prosecuted.
- talmand 11y agoI'm curious. Is this that all that is needed to be prosecuted for a public crime such as this is for someone to accuse you? Whether they are connected to the alleged crime or not? Whether there is a victim or not? For that matter, how can one be prosecuted with no charges? I think I may be misunderstanding the context of the terms.
- olavk 11y agoIf you commit a murder, the victim is dead and can't raise charges. You can still be prosecuted.
- talmand 11y agoAlthough I think that's an excellent example of a reason for the state to press charges, I think it's rather obvious that's a different matter. I would imagine one could argue that the victim in the case is potentially the state itself. I'm thinking more along the lines that there is a clear cut victim of the alleged crime that refuses to file charges and the state does it in their stead. It would seem that the lack of charges from the alleged victim is the first defense of the accused, even the victim disagrees with the state.
- icebraining 11y agoOf course, if the victim claims the crime didn't happen, it obviously makes it harder to prove it did, and the prosecutor will take that into account when deciding if the case should be brought to trial. But there are important reasons why one wouldn't press charges despite having suffered the crime; a few of the obvious ones include fear of retaliation, being unwilling to be in the presence of the perpetrator(s), lying to protect them, etc. And despite that refusal, there still may there be enough evidence to prove it happened.
- lawnchair_larry 11y agoWhat does rape have to do with this situation?
- ctdonath 11y agoDepends on what the cost of not providing the police presence is. Is he worth more than £12m alive, when other countries may want him silenced (say by "wetwork")? And by removing that police protection, perhaps they are trying to entice him to provide some £12m or more of information in light of the likelihood of that wetwork?
- fnordfnordfnord 11y agoDavid Cameron?
- ma2rten 11y agoWhere do these prices come from anyway? According to Google the average salary of a police man in England is £30,000 and they work about 40 hours per week. So it should cost £126,000 station one person for 24/7. Now I understand that real costs will be higher for various reasons, but 100x?
- sylvinus 11y agoIt's pretty easy to find reasonable multiples on your assumptions. It's London and they might not be average policemen: salary x2 ; Overtime/nighttime: x2, Administrative overhead (they must spend time reporting, at the precinct, ...): x2 ; Multiple policemen (1 would not be enough to act): x3-x5 ; Management of those officers & briefings: x2-x3 ; That's already ~x100 and it's human costs only.
- samstave 11y agoI don't believe most of these numbers. I'll be back later with a spreadsheet Why am I being downvoted? Seriously, this math calculates to me differently in my head - so I am going to put a spreadsheet together to see if these costs are real. Ill assume the avg salary stated above, plus the hours and schedules. I can't believe that some beat officer is going to inflate costs 2x for doing reporting. I HIGHLY doubt there is that much paperwork for a simple shift change. Further, the "cost" could be highly falsely inflated to justify the stopping of guarding Assange as they may see it a waste - and want to inflate how much waste there is so as to get easy agreement that "its not worth it"
- ricksplat 11y agoThey're probably not "Beat" cops, there are highly paid special branch and detectives too. Lets say on £80k each. There's all the intelligence activities that go into this. As somebody else mentioned overtime, other costs such as surveillance equipment, maintaining a situation room, heating, and food, helicopters, public relations christ the costs go on and on ... Hahahahaha - "beat" officers
- n0mad01 11y agoIt's a trap!
- exhilaration 11y agoIt actually is, from the MET statement above: ...the MPS will deploy a number of overt and covert tactics to arrest him.
- tonyedgecombe 11y agoThey would say that though wouldn't they.
- Nux 11y agoOr are they? .. ta ta ta taaaaaa!
- sarciszewski 11y agoI really wish someone would come along and go, "Aha! Assange has secretly been living in Ecuador this whole time. Fooled you, UK gov!" But then again, I like to see government incompetence used against itself rather than against innocent people, like what happens here in the US.
- DanBC 11y agoI'm surprised he hasn't been smuggled out in a diplomatic crate. Some of the shenanigans that went on with diplomatic bags shows that some countries are prepared to do this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1132544.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1132544.stm The Soviets using one to transport a tractor shows the bags can be big enough to get a person out. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2234/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-diplomatic-pouch http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2234/is-there-such-...
- gsnedders 11y agoI suppose there's the argument about how much the Ecuadorians are willing to risk annoying the UK — allowing him to stay is one thing, smuggling him out another.
- vxxzy 11y agoUS brought down a Presidential Plane in Search of Snowden. Any sort of bag/crate big enough to fit a person would be opened immediately.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y agoI'd send hundreds of them, every one full of old socks or something. Make it very expensive/annoying for them.
- sarciszewski 11y agoThere's got to be Assange lookalikes that can muck with their surveillance.
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- maxpupmax 11y agoOn mobile this redirects me to a bunch of spam somehow... Careful if you click through.
- joosters 11y agoBBC redirecting to spam? Seems a little unlikely? Perhaps something else on your phone doing nasty stuff, maybe?
- ViViDboarder 11y agoHappening to me in the in-app browser for Yarn.
- neoCrimeLabs 11y agoAm I the only one who was reminded of the end of THX 1138 -- specifically when the droids stopped following due to exceeding budget -- while reading this article?
- cwkoss 11y agoIt would be really funny to hire a bunch of Julian Assange impersonators to hang out in front of the embassy.
- cwkoss 11y agoIt would be really funny to hire a bunch of Julian Assange impersonators to hang out in front of the embassy.
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- mindcrime 11y agoSo here's a question: why don't the Swedish just do the common-sense thing, drop the political posturing and either: A. interview him via Google Hangout / Skype / etc. or B. fly somebody to England to interview him at the Ecuadorian embassy?
- gsnedders 11y agoA. Because he's wanted for arrest, and you can't arrest someone over Google Hangout / Skype / etc. B. Because the Ecuadorian government required guarantees the Swedish government cannot provide (because it'd be overriding the judiciary).
- mindcrime 11y agoA. Because he's wanted for arrest, and you can't arrest someone over Google Hangout / Skype / etc. I had thought that one possible outcome of the interview with him would be a decision to not arrest him. If that's the case it seems they'd want to get the interview out of the way by any means, and then if the need to arrest him stands, deal with that then. B. Because the Ecuadorian government required guarantees the Swedish government cannot provide (because it'd be overriding the judiciary). Interesting, I don't remember that bit, but that sounds likely. Oh well... what can ya do? shrug
- gsnedders 11y agoThe view of the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom was that the "interview" was, in practical terms, equivalent to arrest under English and Welsh law. From memory (though this was years ago!) a formal charge must be occur at the end of an interview. There's no distinction, in the view of the Supreme Court, between the interview and the arrest. The argument that he's only wanted for interview was a large part of his defence prior to entering the embassy, and was entirely shot down by the courts.
- NickHaflinger 11y agoHave they checked out the tunnel?