4 ms·

I don't get this. This is a company, a product, which no one is forced to use.* If you disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook; there are trillions of oth

by pmlnr 11y ago

I don't get this. This is a company, a product, which no one is forced to use.* If you disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook; there are trillions of other options out there to build community sites, some much, much better than FB. That is how you make a change, not by enforcing ideas on a company. *ED. For some situations I understand that it's inevitable - even schools use it as a generic broadcasting media nowadays. But for that, you can clearly use your 'real' name, can't you?

DanBC 11y ago
Are you saying it's fine that Facebook chooses to discriminate against GLBT+ people? What happens if we sub in other minorities? "If black people disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook"; "If Jews disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook".
- aianus 11y ago
  They're not discriminating against GLBT+ people, they're discriminating against people using pseudonyms. I can't show up to a job interview, use a fake name, and claim I'm being discriminated against...
  - DanBC 11y ago
    You know what indirect discrimination is, right? > I can't show up to a job interview, use a fake name, and claim I'm being discriminated against... You could if you're in the process of transitioning. (UK; the US needs to catch up). And it's not a fake name. It's their name. You seem to think that people have this single thing which is their name - that might be true in the US (I dunno) but it's not true in many other places. And because the US rules for changing names on documents are inconsistent a person may have a passport in one name but a driving licence in another.
    - Symbiote 11y ago
      You could probably go further — at most only HR need to know an official name, probably with a note on the file reminding them that it's confidential. That need only be revealed once you're accepting the job offer. I have recently moved to Denmark, and several public or semi-public database systems have had special attention drawn to how my name might be used, and instructions to avoid certain uses. (For example, there seemed to be a special way to register in a municipality under an assumed name, to avoid stalkers etc.)
    - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
      > You seem to think that people have this single thing which is their name - that might be true in the US (I dunno) but it's not true in many other places. Even people with one "real name" may have slight variations on it that they use. Many people use their nickname and don't show their middle name. If your name isn't written in Latin script, you might have the original script version and a romanised version, possibly even more than one romanised version. If you're Chinese, you might have a Western name alias which you're known by professionally.
    - pmlnr 11y ago
      > And it's not a fake name. It's their name. You seem to think that people have this single thing which is their name - that might be true in the US (I dunno) but it's not true in many other places. Not according to the current laws. You may want to change the laws as well. ( No, I'm not cynical. )
      - DanBC 11y ago
        What laws? In the UK I can us any name I like so long as I don't have the intent to deceive. WIkipedia says that's the case for the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_name#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_name#United_States > Most states in the United States follow the common law which permits name changing for non-fraudulent purposes. This is actually the most common method, since most women who marry do not petition a court under the statutorily prescribed method, but simply use a new name (typically the husband's, a custom which started under the theory of coverture where a woman lost her identity and most rights when she married).[2] Most state courts have held that a legally assumed name (i.e., for a non-fraudulent purpose) is a legal name and usable as their true name, though assumed names are often not considered the person's technically true name.[3] In the US the different rules for getting a name changed on official documents sometimes leaves people with official documents in different names, so even if you restrict yourself to documents issued by US government authorities a person can have two names.
        tsotha 11y ago
        Yep. In my state to officially change your name all you have to do is start using the new name, though you'll end up putting both down on the "AKA" section of official documents.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    > They're not discriminating against GLBT+ people, they're discriminating against people using pseudonyms. Which disproportionately affects trans people.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    Serious question - What's a fake name? Plenty of people go by names that aren't the same as on their official government ID, even childhood nicknames. Your name is whatever people call you. There's no reason why future employers need to know your "legal" name on a job interview. When you get a job you need to fill out some HR forms and that's basically extent of it. Your coworkers/boss/clients/customers aren't obligated to address you by what is on your government issued ID. Probably half my office goes by something different than what's on their government IDs. Many childhood nicknames and many middle names. Even commonly used diminutives - Peggy for Margaret for example; JP for John Paul; Dick for Richard. If my legal name is Margaret Samathia Jones and I put Peggy Jones on my resume is that going by a fake name? You may have changed your name at marriage and are addressed by that name in personal circles but still are addressed as your birth name in a professional circles in order to better preserve your professional contacts. In plenty of professions it is extremely common to establish yourself professionally under a stage name or pen name or other types of "fake" names. Your legal name may be "cutesy" so you are addressed professionally by an assumed name.
    - pc86 11y ago
      And nobody is having their Facebook account flagged for using "Peggy" instead of "Margaret," they're getting flagged for using "John TheSexMan Doe" instead of the "John Doe" or "Samantha Applebee" instead of "Mark Applebee." So it's a false comparison.
      - nommm-nommm 11y ago
        Hardly. People are getting their facebook flagged for pen names, stage names, derby names, drag names, and other professional names. As well as names that are too common or not common enough, nicknames, and names that contain nouns, adjectives, or adverbs without regards to what shows up on their birth certificate. Not to mention Native American names or other "ethnic" or non-Anglo Saxon names or anything that looks "unusual" (such as, say, Picabo Street or Dick Trickle) Look, if you have established yourself professionally as The Edge being forced to use facebook as David Howell Evans obviously isn't desirable to you especially if you want to use facebook to promote your works or other professional activities. And who in the fuck cares if someone is using a feminine sounding name that appears to be masculine. Nobody (and I mean nobody) should be the gender police, seriously. I have a female friend who is named "Robert" anyways.
mikeash 11y ago
I don't get why you think the only options should be to agree entirely or walk away. If a company has a product which you mostly enjoy but which you think could be improved, is it not reasonable to complain to try to get them to improve it?
- pmlnr 11y ago
  Not really; the only way to force companies is by spending your money somewhere else. They just simply won't care while you're still making the same money for them.
  - merijnv 11y ago
    > the only way to force companies is by spending your money somewhere else Or, you know, enforcing new legislation that forces the company to do what you want...
    - minority-one 11y ago
      I'm pretty sure pmlnr meant "the only way to peacefully/morally force companies is by spending your money somewhere else". We all know violence and threat (what you suggest) works. Some of us are trying to decrease the amount of what you suggest in the world. New legislation is a direct threat to companies, backed by the power of the government to fine and arrest those who disobey. Why go to such lengths when it's much easier just to stop going to Facebook? Only a perverse sadist would prefer legislation over ostracism.
      - merijnv 11y ago
        > New legislation is a direct threat to companies, backed by the power of the government to fine and arrest those who disobey. Why go to such lengths when it's much easier just to stop going to Facebook? Only a perverse sadist would prefer legislation over ostracism. Right, this is why the US is such a shiny beacon of safe products, consumer-friendliness, and consumer rights compared to the horrible European markets... :) I always find this sentiment on HN so amusing. "Legislation hurts companies, we should all just ostracise/boycott companies instead!" despite all practical evidence suggesting that legislation actually gets things done. Like, I can actually get fast affordable internet here, unlike when I was in the US :)
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
> This is a company, a product, which no one is forced to use. In practice, not using Facebook means cutting off social contact with some people.
- pmlnr 11y ago
  True. I've asked myself the question that if I do want to leave Facebook, but my 'friends' doesn't care and not willing to do any other form of communication, are they really my friends?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
tsotha 11y ago
I agree with this. Facebook is a service with a business model. I'm all for people who have legitimate concerns trying to convince the company to adjust policy, but I don't like the way pressure groups try to strong-arm companies. In this case, though, I will make one exception: As my extended family got FB accounts they started posting family pictures that included me, and identified me by name. If you go back through enough posts you could get a pretty good idea what my habits are just by analyzing what other people have posted.

by pmlnr 11y ago

DanBC 11y ago

Are you saying it's fine that Facebook chooses to discriminate against GLBT+ people? What happens if we sub in other minorities? "If black people disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook"; "If Jews disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook".

aianus 11y ago
They're not discriminating against GLBT+ people, they're discriminating against people using pseudonyms. I can't show up to a job interview, use a fake name, and claim I'm being discriminated against...
- DanBC 11y ago
  You know what indirect discrimination is, right? > I can't show up to a job interview, use a fake name, and claim I'm being discriminated against... You could if you're in the process of transitioning. (UK; the US needs to catch up). And it's not a fake name. It's their name. You seem to think that people have this single thing which is their name - that might be true in the US (I dunno) but it's not true in many other places. And because the US rules for changing names on documents are inconsistent a person may have a passport in one name but a driving licence in another.
  - Symbiote 11y ago
    You could probably go further — at most only HR need to know an official name, probably with a note on the file reminding them that it's confidential. That need only be revealed once you're accepting the job offer. I have recently moved to Denmark, and several public or semi-public database systems have had special attention drawn to how my name might be used, and instructions to avoid certain uses. (For example, there seemed to be a special way to register in a municipality under an assumed name, to avoid stalkers etc.)
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    > You seem to think that people have this single thing which is their name - that might be true in the US (I dunno) but it's not true in many other places. Even people with one "real name" may have slight variations on it that they use. Many people use their nickname and don't show their middle name. If your name isn't written in Latin script, you might have the original script version and a romanised version, possibly even more than one romanised version. If you're Chinese, you might have a Western name alias which you're known by professionally.
  - pmlnr 11y ago
    > And it's not a fake name. It's their name. You seem to think that people have this single thing which is their name - that might be true in the US (I dunno) but it's not true in many other places. Not according to the current laws. You may want to change the laws as well. ( No, I'm not cynical. )
    - DanBC 11y ago
      What laws? In the UK I can us any name I like so long as I don't have the intent to deceive. WIkipedia says that's the case for the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_name#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_name#United_States > Most states in the United States follow the common law which permits name changing for non-fraudulent purposes. This is actually the most common method, since most women who marry do not petition a court under the statutorily prescribed method, but simply use a new name (typically the husband's, a custom which started under the theory of coverture where a woman lost her identity and most rights when she married).[2] Most state courts have held that a legally assumed name (i.e., for a non-fraudulent purpose) is a legal name and usable as their true name, though assumed names are often not considered the person's technically true name.[3] In the US the different rules for getting a name changed on official documents sometimes leaves people with official documents in different names, so even if you restrict yourself to documents issued by US government authorities a person can have two names.
      - tsotha 11y ago
        Yep. In my state to officially change your name all you have to do is start using the new name, though you'll end up putting both down on the "AKA" section of official documents.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  > They're not discriminating against GLBT+ people, they're discriminating against people using pseudonyms. Which disproportionately affects trans people.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  Serious question - What's a fake name? Plenty of people go by names that aren't the same as on their official government ID, even childhood nicknames. Your name is whatever people call you. There's no reason why future employers need to know your "legal" name on a job interview. When you get a job you need to fill out some HR forms and that's basically extent of it. Your coworkers/boss/clients/customers aren't obligated to address you by what is on your government issued ID. Probably half my office goes by something different than what's on their government IDs. Many childhood nicknames and many middle names. Even commonly used diminutives - Peggy for Margaret for example; JP for John Paul; Dick for Richard. If my legal name is Margaret Samathia Jones and I put Peggy Jones on my resume is that going by a fake name? You may have changed your name at marriage and are addressed by that name in personal circles but still are addressed as your birth name in a professional circles in order to better preserve your professional contacts. In plenty of professions it is extremely common to establish yourself professionally under a stage name or pen name or other types of "fake" names. Your legal name may be "cutesy" so you are addressed professionally by an assumed name.
  - pc86 11y ago
    And nobody is having their Facebook account flagged for using "Peggy" instead of "Margaret," they're getting flagged for using "John TheSexMan Doe" instead of the "John Doe" or "Samantha Applebee" instead of "Mark Applebee." So it's a false comparison.
    - nommm-nommm 11y ago
      Hardly. People are getting their facebook flagged for pen names, stage names, derby names, drag names, and other professional names. As well as names that are too common or not common enough, nicknames, and names that contain nouns, adjectives, or adverbs without regards to what shows up on their birth certificate. Not to mention Native American names or other "ethnic" or non-Anglo Saxon names or anything that looks "unusual" (such as, say, Picabo Street or Dick Trickle) Look, if you have established yourself professionally as The Edge being forced to use facebook as David Howell Evans obviously isn't desirable to you especially if you want to use facebook to promote your works or other professional activities. And who in the fuck cares if someone is using a feminine sounding name that appears to be masculine. Nobody (and I mean nobody) should be the gender police, seriously. I have a female friend who is named "Robert" anyways.

mikeash 11y ago

I don't get why you think the only options should be to agree entirely or walk away. If a company has a product which you mostly enjoy but which you think could be improved, is it not reasonable to complain to try to get them to improve it?

pmlnr 11y ago
Not really; the only way to force companies is by spending your money somewhere else. They just simply won't care while you're still making the same money for them.
- merijnv 11y ago
  > the only way to force companies is by spending your money somewhere else Or, you know, enforcing new legislation that forces the company to do what you want...
  - minority-one 11y ago
    I'm pretty sure pmlnr meant "the only way to peacefully/morally force companies is by spending your money somewhere else". We all know violence and threat (what you suggest) works. Some of us are trying to decrease the amount of what you suggest in the world. New legislation is a direct threat to companies, backed by the power of the government to fine and arrest those who disobey. Why go to such lengths when it's much easier just to stop going to Facebook? Only a perverse sadist would prefer legislation over ostracism.
    - merijnv 11y ago
      > New legislation is a direct threat to companies, backed by the power of the government to fine and arrest those who disobey. Why go to such lengths when it's much easier just to stop going to Facebook? Only a perverse sadist would prefer legislation over ostracism. Right, this is why the US is such a shiny beacon of safe products, consumer-friendliness, and consumer rights compared to the horrible European markets... :) I always find this sentiment on HN so amusing. "Legislation hurts companies, we should all just ostracise/boycott companies instead!" despite all practical evidence suggesting that legislation actually gets things done. Like, I can actually get fast affordable internet here, unlike when I was in the US :)

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

> This is a company, a product, which no one is forced to use. In practice, not using Facebook means cutting off social contact with some people.

pmlnr 11y ago
True. I've asked myself the question that if I do want to leave Facebook, but my 'friends' doesn't care and not willing to do any other form of communication, are they really my friends?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

tsotha 11y ago

I agree with this. Facebook is a service with a business model. I'm all for people who have legitimate concerns trying to convince the company to adjust policy, but I don't like the way pressure groups try to strong-arm companies. In this case, though, I will make one exception: As my extended family got FB accounts they started posting family pictures that included me, and identified me by name. If you go back through enough posts you could get a pretty good idea what my habits are just by analyzing what other people have posted.