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I was a grad student and teaching assistant in Berkeley maths 1998-99. I observed that the department intentionally admitted many more grad students than it cou

I was a grad student and teaching assistant in Berkeley maths 1998-99. I observed that the department intentionally admitted many more grad students than it could possibly put through the full PhD, and had a well-tuned system for weeding them out after a year or two - chiefly a "preliminary exam" that was notoriously tough and (in my view and that of many others) unfair. A charitable view would be that the department wanted to give many students a chance to shine and graduate, so had a liberal admissions policy; a cynic might observe that those who failed the prelim conveniently taught calculus as TAs for a couple of years for a ridiculously low cost, hence provided cheap labour (much cheaper than Dr. Coward for sure). After two years of experiencing the kind of environment Dr. Coward describes, I definitely adopted the cynical view. I left the university, and mathematics, and have been much happier as a result. I wish Dr. Coward every success in changing what I found to be a very unpleasant system in the department.

Bahamut 11y ago
It should be noted that this is a fairly common pattern in graduate mathematics departments at public schools - IMO, it is to give students a chance when given outstanding resources. I experienced something similar while at UIUC for math, but I passed the comprehensive exams solidly (my first attempt at two of them were thwarted by abnormally difficult exams where almost no one passed). I ultimately left, but largely due to non-academic reasons combined with the state of Illinois stealing the university's budget allocation. Teaching wasn't too bad, but life in the tech industry sure beats academia.
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  This sounds like a very strange system to me. Where I graduated (and I believe in most of Europe) the university has to have allocated the full funding for the entire PhD for a student before that student is admitted. So the university cannot afford to run a scheme like you describe, which is good since that sounds to me like a borderline predatory system.
  - TruePath 11y ago
    Teaching positions for grad students aren't predatory. They are really a form of financial assistance. In return for teaching 3 hours a week 2 hours sitting in your office with the occasional student visitor (with say 5 hours of prep work that could be done during office hours and 3 12 hour days grading exams). That's 8 hours of work a week which works out to a pretty decent hourly salary. It's hardly luxury and when the state/university system yanks funding out during your tenure THAT is somewhat predatory but usually most departments find a way to tighten belts and make sure current students have sufficent funding.
    - j2kun 11y ago
      I've got six hours of teaching a week plus 2 hours of office hours plus meetings related to teaching plus prep plus grading. Plus classes, homework, exams, plus research meetings, plus doing research, plus seminars, plus commute. My university's administration has a rule that our department can't pay us more than a fixed amount, and that amount happens to be lower than the living wage in the city I live in. In other words, by the university's own admission they don't pay us enough to live off of.
- nilkn 11y ago
  For what it's worth, when I was still in college trying to decide between pursuing a math Ph.D. or going into the tech industry as a programmer, I remember being advised to think very hard about Berkeley as a graduate school due to the reasons cited above. So, while this is just anecdata and I ultimately chose the second option, my experience researching graduate math departments is that Berkeley is specifically known for this practice and very few other departments are.
crimsonalucard 11y ago
If hard working students fail a test, the failure is on the teacher, not the students. I highly doubt the majority of students at berkeley would be anything other than hard working.
- lzr_io 11y ago
  Unfortunately, hard work is not always effective work. When you embark on a journey of learning, it is your own responsiblity to make sure that you learn effectively. Hard work alone does not justify any merits - you have to make it count.
  - emp_zealoth 11y ago
    That is exactly the job of a teacher - to make sure you learn effectively.
    - agumonkey 11y ago
      How many of your teachers focused on efficient learning ? I can't remember one. Even the handful of teacher that left a deep trace in my memory never mentioned 'learning'. They were just so well aware of their subject, they could be the catalyst to bridge gaps in my view of things, triggering inspiration and desire.
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        There needs to be a desire in the student to learn, but the teacher must also be able to impart things clearly. Otherwise, why bother having teachers at all? Why not have everyone self-learn? Ironically, that's what I'm actually doing right now, but still it's good to get recorded lectures as this tends to really help fill in blanks.
        agumonkey 11y ago
        I'm doing a lot of self studies too, and what I'm missing the most is a little peer pressure to focus and test, especially tests. That's why I personally enjoyed MOOCs since they provide that. My experience is doubly biased, I don't recall any teacher being really helping in learning as I said, but I went to college at a time I couldn't interact with them normally too.
TruePath 11y ago
Hmm, my experience in 2001-2008 wasn't the same. While there were certainly funding issues the department worked pretty hard to try and do what it could to help. Then again technically I was in the logic group so things were a bit different for me but I'm conveying what my math grad officemates and friends experienced (i.e. they said they had pretty much the same situation). Yes, some people didn't finish but math is hard and while the department is large and can be impersonal there were no barriers and efforts were made to assist the students. The cheap labor argument doesn't really hold water (at least during my time). More students wanted teaching positions than positions were available.
- squirrel 11y ago
  Glad to hear the situation improved after my time. Even back then, I observed that logic treated its students better than maths did. There was precious little help for us in prelim prep, just a student-run seminar and problem book, while I don't remember logic even having a comparable test, or if they did, it was not designed to filter out over 50% of students as the maths one was. Don't understand your last paragraph. If demand for jobs exceeds supply from the employer, that suggests there will be downward pressure on wages, i.e. the labour becomes even cheaper. Maybe you're suggesting that the jobs can't be that bad if people want to work at them, but that wasn't what I said. I enjoyed being a TA immensely, and it was a flexible job that fit my studies well so I did it even though I had funding - but that doesn't mean I wasn't still massively cheaper for the university than hiring Dr. Coward, or that there wasn't a cynical strategy of getting us students to teach calculus cheaply and then dumping half of us on the street.
madcaptenor 11y ago
I chose not to be a grad student in Berkeley's math department for exactly this reason. I went to a smaller school that didn't have this sort of weeding out. (I started my PhD in 2005, and it's possible that this was not the situation at the time and I was acting on outdated information. I don't regret it, though.)
justifier 11y ago
> I left the university, and mathematics, and have been much happier as a result is the second bit true? why lump mathematics with your leaving of the university? what does it mean to leave mathematics? i stopped looking at the stars because i left the business that hires engineers to build commercial lenses?
- squirrel 11y ago
  Yes, the second bit is true, for me - I am much happier as a consulting CTO than I ever would have been as a maths professor (abandonment of the latter career is what I meant by "leaving mathematics"). I guess I have to thank Berkeley for helping me to discover this fact relatively quickly. I did not mean to lump maths and Berkeley together - I happened to leave both at the same time, but that doesn't mean I had to, or indeed that this was necessarily best for me, or would be best for others.
  - justifier 11y ago
    i see now that you meant the career: Mathematics; and i am glad you are happier now my concern was that if you ever found happiness in research that you dropped that happiness assuming the career and research were the same what happened to all the open thoughts you developed in your area of interest?
    - squirrel 11y ago
      I still pursue them for fun occasionally, and my papers (very minor, and never properly published) are cited or used even more occasionally. That's fine with me, as I've been able to do much more in my new field.
      - justifier 11y ago
        A relief, glad to hear this as well

Bahamut 11y ago

It should be noted that this is a fairly common pattern in graduate mathematics departments at public schools - IMO, it is to give students a chance when given outstanding resources. I experienced something similar while at UIUC for math, but I passed the comprehensive exams solidly (my first attempt at two of them were thwarted by abnormally difficult exams where almost no one passed). I ultimately left, but largely due to non-academic reasons combined with the state of Illinois stealing the university's budget allocation. Teaching wasn't too bad, but life in the tech industry sure beats academia.

semi-extrinsic 11y ago
This sounds like a very strange system to me. Where I graduated (and I believe in most of Europe) the university has to have allocated the full funding for the entire PhD for a student before that student is admitted. So the university cannot afford to run a scheme like you describe, which is good since that sounds to me like a borderline predatory system.
- TruePath 11y ago
  Teaching positions for grad students aren't predatory. They are really a form of financial assistance. In return for teaching 3 hours a week 2 hours sitting in your office with the occasional student visitor (with say 5 hours of prep work that could be done during office hours and 3 12 hour days grading exams). That's 8 hours of work a week which works out to a pretty decent hourly salary. It's hardly luxury and when the state/university system yanks funding out during your tenure THAT is somewhat predatory but usually most departments find a way to tighten belts and make sure current students have sufficent funding.
  - j2kun 11y ago
    I've got six hours of teaching a week plus 2 hours of office hours plus meetings related to teaching plus prep plus grading. Plus classes, homework, exams, plus research meetings, plus doing research, plus seminars, plus commute. My university's administration has a rule that our department can't pay us more than a fixed amount, and that amount happens to be lower than the living wage in the city I live in. In other words, by the university's own admission they don't pay us enough to live off of.
nilkn 11y ago
For what it's worth, when I was still in college trying to decide between pursuing a math Ph.D. or going into the tech industry as a programmer, I remember being advised to think very hard about Berkeley as a graduate school due to the reasons cited above. So, while this is just anecdata and I ultimately chose the second option, my experience researching graduate math departments is that Berkeley is specifically known for this practice and very few other departments are.

crimsonalucard 11y ago

If hard working students fail a test, the failure is on the teacher, not the students. I highly doubt the majority of students at berkeley would be anything other than hard working.

lzr_io 11y ago
Unfortunately, hard work is not always effective work. When you embark on a journey of learning, it is your own responsiblity to make sure that you learn effectively. Hard work alone does not justify any merits - you have to make it count.
- emp_zealoth 11y ago
  That is exactly the job of a teacher - to make sure you learn effectively.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    How many of your teachers focused on efficient learning ? I can't remember one. Even the handful of teacher that left a deep trace in my memory never mentioned 'learning'. They were just so well aware of their subject, they could be the catalyst to bridge gaps in my view of things, triggering inspiration and desire.
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      There needs to be a desire in the student to learn, but the teacher must also be able to impart things clearly. Otherwise, why bother having teachers at all? Why not have everyone self-learn? Ironically, that's what I'm actually doing right now, but still it's good to get recorded lectures as this tends to really help fill in blanks.
      - agumonkey 11y ago
        I'm doing a lot of self studies too, and what I'm missing the most is a little peer pressure to focus and test, especially tests. That's why I personally enjoyed MOOCs since they provide that. My experience is doubly biased, I don't recall any teacher being really helping in learning as I said, but I went to college at a time I couldn't interact with them normally too.

TruePath 11y ago

Hmm, my experience in 2001-2008 wasn't the same. While there were certainly funding issues the department worked pretty hard to try and do what it could to help. Then again technically I was in the logic group so things were a bit different for me but I'm conveying what my math grad officemates and friends experienced (i.e. they said they had pretty much the same situation). Yes, some people didn't finish but math is hard and while the department is large and can be impersonal there were no barriers and efforts were made to assist the students. The cheap labor argument doesn't really hold water (at least during my time). More students wanted teaching positions than positions were available.

squirrel 11y ago
Glad to hear the situation improved after my time. Even back then, I observed that logic treated its students better than maths did. There was precious little help for us in prelim prep, just a student-run seminar and problem book, while I don't remember logic even having a comparable test, or if they did, it was not designed to filter out over 50% of students as the maths one was. Don't understand your last paragraph. If demand for jobs exceeds supply from the employer, that suggests there will be downward pressure on wages, i.e. the labour becomes even cheaper. Maybe you're suggesting that the jobs can't be that bad if people want to work at them, but that wasn't what I said. I enjoyed being a TA immensely, and it was a flexible job that fit my studies well so I did it even though I had funding - but that doesn't mean I wasn't still massively cheaper for the university than hiring Dr. Coward, or that there wasn't a cynical strategy of getting us students to teach calculus cheaply and then dumping half of us on the street.

madcaptenor 11y ago

I chose not to be a grad student in Berkeley's math department for exactly this reason. I went to a smaller school that didn't have this sort of weeding out. (I started my PhD in 2005, and it's possible that this was not the situation at the time and I was acting on outdated information. I don't regret it, though.)

justifier 11y ago

> I left the university, and mathematics, and have been much happier as a result is the second bit true? why lump mathematics with your leaving of the university? what does it mean to leave mathematics? i stopped looking at the stars because i left the business that hires engineers to build commercial lenses?

squirrel 11y ago
Yes, the second bit is true, for me - I am much happier as a consulting CTO than I ever would have been as a maths professor (abandonment of the latter career is what I meant by "leaving mathematics"). I guess I have to thank Berkeley for helping me to discover this fact relatively quickly. I did not mean to lump maths and Berkeley together - I happened to leave both at the same time, but that doesn't mean I had to, or indeed that this was necessarily best for me, or would be best for others.
- justifier 11y ago
  i see now that you meant the career: Mathematics; and i am glad you are happier now my concern was that if you ever found happiness in research that you dropped that happiness assuming the career and research were the same what happened to all the open thoughts you developed in your area of interest?
  - squirrel 11y ago
    I still pursue them for fun occasionally, and my papers (very minor, and never properly published) are cited or used even more occasionally. That's fine with me, as I've been able to do much more in my new field.
    - justifier 11y ago
      A relief, glad to hear this as well