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The fact I can give you the link: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=19 http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=19 more or less is the difference

The fact I can give you the link: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=19 http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=19 more or less is the difference, and American is on the right side of the difference. Note that the 1700 refers to death penalty killings, which American is unique amongst developed countries to still have, and is as bad as China is this. The fact it puts them on a list with, for example, China, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia should be a reason enough to get rid of it.

ytinas 17y ago
I'm not a fan of China's government either (though I hate the US' about equally), but I really think this argument is vastly more complex than you're presenting. For example, you think it's clear cut that US citizens being able to get some link on the Internet puts them above China citizens. There are many problems with this line of reason: 1) People in China can get on the web as well. Due to how the firewalling work, most probably don't even realize it happens. Just sometimes they try a link that times out. Happens all the time. Are you sure it isn't already happening to you? 2) Are you sure the information you're seeing is true? In some cases you wont have any way of completely proving one way or another. 3) For some countries, seeing the info doesn't affect anything because of the level of indoctrination the people go through. For example, you can point out what ever you like to a Scientologist, you wont change their mind because their indoctrination will prevent them from believing you or your source. Are you sure you or the citizens of your country don't also have this problem?
- Robin_Message 17y ago
  Okay, this is getting a little convoluted now, so I apologise if these points lack clarity or are poorly made. > I'm not a fan of China's government either (though I hate the US' about equally), but I really think this argument is vastly more complex than you're presenting. I don't think America is without problems, and I think the direction it is going, especially w.r.t corporations is alarming, but it cannot be compared to China. > 1) People in China can get on the web as well. Due to how the firewalling work, most probably don't even realize it happens. Just sometimes they try a link that times out. Happens all the time. Are you sure it isn't already happening to you? The link is not "some link", it was a link to an organisation that reports on deaths in police custody. They probably do dead trees and libraries as well. Yes, I'm sure the US government is firewalling the internet. Some of it we have already heard about, some of it we'll hear about in the future. For that reason, it doesn't bother me. > 2) Are you sure the information you're seeing is true? In some cases you wont have any way of completely proving one way or another. Well, for example, the USA confess around 1000 deaths in custody between 2003 and 2005. That sounds pretty bad, but I suppose they could have rounded it down. The point is you have to trust systems, and the only systems you can trust are ones that are self-correcting, with independent actors and oversight. 3) For some countries, seeing the info doesn't affect anything because of the level of indoctrination the people go through. For example, you can point out what ever you like to a Scientologist, you wont change their mind because their indoctrination will prevent them from believing you or your source. Are you sure you or the citizens of your country don't also have this problem? No, that would be impossible to prove. I can claim that I currently believe that I believe very little, but that doesn't really help. I mean, I don't actually know China exists at all. Look at is like this: From China's perspective, the problems we are talking about here are not problems, they are features of a system designed to control the population in every way. Whereas from America's perspective, if these things are happening, they are a big problem that needs fixing. That doesn't mean they aren't happening in American, but they aren't the aim. You need a pretty big conspiracy to make American as bad as China. Can I also suggest reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society Obviously there is a trade-off with levels of crime, poverty and so on, but I'd rather live in an albeit imperfect western open society, or even India, than China.
  - ytinas 17y ago
    >I don't think America is without problems, and I think the direction it is going, especially w.r.t corporations is alarming, but it cannot be compared to China. Can't it? Bush was basically a criminal who used a convenient (for him) tragedy to make billions for his pals. Then "change" came and now Obama is making billions for his buddies on Wall Street. The corruption is open and obvious. It's not the same kinds of corruption as China, but it's hard for me to call one evil and the other a beacon of hope. >The point is you have to trust systems, and the only systems you can trust are ones that are self-correcting, with independent actors and oversight. True, but my point was that most people simply trust someone somewhere is doing this due diligence. Some of us may even bother reading up on it enough to satisfy ourselves that it's happening. But without actually being involved you can't be certain. Maybe people in China and North Korea think their government also has these kind of due diligence mechanisms. >Some of it we have already heard about, some of it we'll hear about in the future. For that reason, it doesn't bother me. This is actually something scary that's happening world wide. Gradually locking down the Internet so you wont hear about these anymore. I hope someone comes up with some good peer-to-peer technology to combat this soon. >No, that would be impossible to prove. I can claim that I currently believe that I believe very little, but that doesn't really help. I mean, I don't actually know China exists at all. But you can easily prove China exists by going there and spending some time there. But as long as people aren't willing to look for themselves, what I describe will be very possible. I used to believe the US was the greatest nation on earth. Then I came to Europe and found it to be much better in so many things. >Can I also suggest reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society Obviously there is a trade-off with levels of crime, poverty and so on, but I'd rather live in an albeit imperfect western open society, or even India, than China. Agreed, but what one has to keep in mind is: what is the end state? How do you want the world to be? Personally I want to live in a world where people only have to work on what they find interesting. Everyone knows that people who love something produce better work in that area than people who don't. This whole site is (or used to be) based around the idea of making a start up and getting rich from it some how. But why? So we can work on what we're interested in, of course. Wouldn't it be nice to just skip that middle part and start working on what you like from the start, without having to worry about financial independence? Now, which government is getting me closer to that? The US? No, they seem to be rapidly going the opposite direction. China doesn't look good, but they are still in development. Who knows what kind of society they will end up with. Given the track record of humanity, probably not with a very good one, but no other country has anything to offer them.

ytinas 17y ago

I'm not a fan of China's government either (though I hate the US' about equally), but I really think this argument is vastly more complex than you're presenting. For example, you think it's clear cut that US citizens being able to get some link on the Internet puts them above China citizens. There are many problems with this line of reason: 1) People in China can get on the web as well. Due to how the firewalling work, most probably don't even realize it happens. Just sometimes they try a link that times out. Happens all the time. Are you sure it isn't already happening to you? 2) Are you sure the information you're seeing is true? In some cases you wont have any way of completely proving one way or another. 3) For some countries, seeing the info doesn't affect anything because of the level of indoctrination the people go through. For example, you can point out what ever you like to a Scientologist, you wont change their mind because their indoctrination will prevent them from believing you or your source. Are you sure you or the citizens of your country don't also have this problem?

Robin_Message 17y ago
Okay, this is getting a little convoluted now, so I apologise if these points lack clarity or are poorly made. > I'm not a fan of China's government either (though I hate the US' about equally), but I really think this argument is vastly more complex than you're presenting. I don't think America is without problems, and I think the direction it is going, especially w.r.t corporations is alarming, but it cannot be compared to China. > 1) People in China can get on the web as well. Due to how the firewalling work, most probably don't even realize it happens. Just sometimes they try a link that times out. Happens all the time. Are you sure it isn't already happening to you? The link is not "some link", it was a link to an organisation that reports on deaths in police custody. They probably do dead trees and libraries as well. Yes, I'm sure the US government is firewalling the internet. Some of it we have already heard about, some of it we'll hear about in the future. For that reason, it doesn't bother me. > 2) Are you sure the information you're seeing is true? In some cases you wont have any way of completely proving one way or another. Well, for example, the USA confess around 1000 deaths in custody between 2003 and 2005. That sounds pretty bad, but I suppose they could have rounded it down. The point is you have to trust systems, and the only systems you can trust are ones that are self-correcting, with independent actors and oversight. 3) For some countries, seeing the info doesn't affect anything because of the level of indoctrination the people go through. For example, you can point out what ever you like to a Scientologist, you wont change their mind because their indoctrination will prevent them from believing you or your source. Are you sure you or the citizens of your country don't also have this problem? No, that would be impossible to prove. I can claim that I currently believe that I believe very little, but that doesn't really help. I mean, I don't actually know China exists at all. Look at is like this: From China's perspective, the problems we are talking about here are not problems, they are features of a system designed to control the population in every way. Whereas from America's perspective, if these things are happening, they are a big problem that needs fixing. That doesn't mean they aren't happening in American, but they aren't the aim. You need a pretty big conspiracy to make American as bad as China. Can I also suggest reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society Obviously there is a trade-off with levels of crime, poverty and so on, but I'd rather live in an albeit imperfect western open society, or even India, than China.
- ytinas 17y ago
  >I don't think America is without problems, and I think the direction it is going, especially w.r.t corporations is alarming, but it cannot be compared to China. Can't it? Bush was basically a criminal who used a convenient (for him) tragedy to make billions for his pals. Then "change" came and now Obama is making billions for his buddies on Wall Street. The corruption is open and obvious. It's not the same kinds of corruption as China, but it's hard for me to call one evil and the other a beacon of hope. >The point is you have to trust systems, and the only systems you can trust are ones that are self-correcting, with independent actors and oversight. True, but my point was that most people simply trust someone somewhere is doing this due diligence. Some of us may even bother reading up on it enough to satisfy ourselves that it's happening. But without actually being involved you can't be certain. Maybe people in China and North Korea think their government also has these kind of due diligence mechanisms. >Some of it we have already heard about, some of it we'll hear about in the future. For that reason, it doesn't bother me. This is actually something scary that's happening world wide. Gradually locking down the Internet so you wont hear about these anymore. I hope someone comes up with some good peer-to-peer technology to combat this soon. >No, that would be impossible to prove. I can claim that I currently believe that I believe very little, but that doesn't really help. I mean, I don't actually know China exists at all. But you can easily prove China exists by going there and spending some time there. But as long as people aren't willing to look for themselves, what I describe will be very possible. I used to believe the US was the greatest nation on earth. Then I came to Europe and found it to be much better in so many things. >Can I also suggest reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society Obviously there is a trade-off with levels of crime, poverty and so on, but I'd rather live in an albeit imperfect western open society, or even India, than China. Agreed, but what one has to keep in mind is: what is the end state? How do you want the world to be? Personally I want to live in a world where people only have to work on what they find interesting. Everyone knows that people who love something produce better work in that area than people who don't. This whole site is (or used to be) based around the idea of making a start up and getting rich from it some how. But why? So we can work on what we're interested in, of course. Wouldn't it be nice to just skip that middle part and start working on what you like from the start, without having to worry about financial independence? Now, which government is getting me closer to that? The US? No, they seem to be rapidly going the opposite direction. China doesn't look good, but they are still in development. Who knows what kind of society they will end up with. Given the track record of humanity, probably not with a very good one, but no other country has anything to offer them.