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This is a classic example of poor resource allocation by underpricing. If you give away parking (already a scarce resource) and charging for free, rational peop

This is a classic example of poor resource allocation by underpricing. If you give away parking (already a scarce resource) and charging for free, rational people will use as much as they can get. The problem is compounded by the fact that it costs money to run conduit to a charging space, so businesses tend to put them as close to the building as possible, making the space even more valuable. I have met personally with ChargePoint representatives. They have data that shows that if you charge $0.30 or more per kWh, then only people who NEED a charge will occupy the space. Couple that with an occupancy fee that ramps up dramatically when the car stops drawing current, or after, say, 2-4 hours, and people will start moving their cars. Even at this rate, you're still only charging $0.10/mile for electricity, which is on par with what you'd pay for gasoline these days.

URSpider94 11y ago
I should add that we need to step up enforcement on non-chargers (whether ICE or Tesla or Leaf) parking in charging spots. The handicap space analogy is a bad one, a better one is parking in front of a gas pump. Police and property owners should be giving out large (multi-$100) tickets and towing/impounding. I guarantee the behavior would stop.
- johansch 11y ago
  Wouldn't it be easier and more efficient to just black-list them from the charging spots in an automated way? (Some technology would be needed, of course.)
- jvm 11y ago
  Why not just charge for parking instead of for charging? Charging is included in the price. If people want to pay to not charge so be it!
  - masklinn 11y ago
    Because the point is to provide charging stations to increase EV viability, not to provide parking. The parking is a side-effect/necessity.
- epistasis 11y ago
  As it is, it's quite difficult to get back to your car at the exact timing of completion. I think it would be vastly preferable if: 1) All cars and chargers had a clear and consistent signal to show that they are done charging. In my area, few chargers indicate charging status, and every car has it's own completely inconsistent meaning when it comes to lights, it seems. 2) Each charging port could access multiple parking spots. 3) It was considered polite to unplug a charged car and plug in your own (this is already mostly the case). 4) Charging locations were not placed at the best parking locations, but spread out. A charging station need not be so expensive that it has to be used continuously to justify its capital cost. Better to have them spread out and plentifully available, but until we're there, there's many ways to make each charging port more valuable without causing serious inconvenience.
  - URSpider94 11y ago
    I agree with most of what you said, except the fact is, chargers are in fact quite expensive to install. Putting in a large number of them requires massive upgrades of the electrical service. Consider putting in 20, 30A chargers would require a ~800A-rated service (since all could be in service at the same time and you need some safety margin), vs the 200A service installed in the typical home. It's also hard to run them to spots far away in a parking lot, which ups the installation expense quite a lot.
    - epistasis 11y ago
      Well I'm not advocating for large installs in a single location, just lots and lots of small installs everywhere, which is far better for everyone. 20 in one spot would be far too many.
masklinn 11y ago
> If you give away parking (already a scarce resource) and charging for free, rational people will use as much as they can get. You're describing sociopaths here not just rational people. Rational people can use a higher-level reasoning framework than their short-term personal convenience.
- 6stringmerc 11y ago
  I find this distinction important and relevant, akin to the maintenance of the "social fabric" of courtesy. Like a water fountain on a hot day, if there's a line, it takes a special kind of mental composition to want to finish drinking then turn off the water and stand in the way of the next user. Or think that by not having a license plate it's totally cool to park in handicapped spaces...
- greggman 11y ago
  That's not my experience. Lots of people just don't think about it. This may sound like a dumb example but I went to a meetup once, expected 20-25 people. Arrived and there were 6 footlong sandwiches. Clearly with 20-25 people coming the organizers expected them to be cut into around 2-3 inch portions. At 3 inches that would be 24 mini sandwiches. For whatever reason 2 of my friends just helped themselves to a sandwich each. They are 2 of the nicest people I know. I never asked what was going through their minds. I assume they just didn't think about or thought first come first served or something. There's no way I'd describe them as sociopaths. I've seen similar behavior quite often. People don't think or maybe they view the world in someway where there apparent selfish behavior is rational. Next time someone else will be first or something. Today is my turn, someone else will get it tomorrow. Or maybe they're just not thinking, like the 50% of people who stand in front of a train door or an elevator door to board blocking the people trying to get off or the people that stand and have a discussion the moment they step of the escalator blocking everyone about to exit. I don't think those people are sociopaths but they are being unintentionally selfish
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - 11y ago

URSpider94 11y ago

I should add that we need to step up enforcement on non-chargers (whether ICE or Tesla or Leaf) parking in charging spots. The handicap space analogy is a bad one, a better one is parking in front of a gas pump. Police and property owners should be giving out large (multi-$100) tickets and towing/impounding. I guarantee the behavior would stop.

johansch 11y ago
Wouldn't it be easier and more efficient to just black-list them from the charging spots in an automated way? (Some technology would be needed, of course.)
jvm 11y ago
Why not just charge for parking instead of for charging? Charging is included in the price. If people want to pay to not charge so be it!
- masklinn 11y ago
  Because the point is to provide charging stations to increase EV viability, not to provide parking. The parking is a side-effect/necessity.
epistasis 11y ago
As it is, it's quite difficult to get back to your car at the exact timing of completion. I think it would be vastly preferable if: 1) All cars and chargers had a clear and consistent signal to show that they are done charging. In my area, few chargers indicate charging status, and every car has it's own completely inconsistent meaning when it comes to lights, it seems. 2) Each charging port could access multiple parking spots. 3) It was considered polite to unplug a charged car and plug in your own (this is already mostly the case). 4) Charging locations were not placed at the best parking locations, but spread out. A charging station need not be so expensive that it has to be used continuously to justify its capital cost. Better to have them spread out and plentifully available, but until we're there, there's many ways to make each charging port more valuable without causing serious inconvenience.
- URSpider94 11y ago
  I agree with most of what you said, except the fact is, chargers are in fact quite expensive to install. Putting in a large number of them requires massive upgrades of the electrical service. Consider putting in 20, 30A chargers would require a ~800A-rated service (since all could be in service at the same time and you need some safety margin), vs the 200A service installed in the typical home. It's also hard to run them to spots far away in a parking lot, which ups the installation expense quite a lot.
  - epistasis 11y ago
    Well I'm not advocating for large installs in a single location, just lots and lots of small installs everywhere, which is far better for everyone. 20 in one spot would be far too many.

masklinn 11y ago

> If you give away parking (already a scarce resource) and charging for free, rational people will use as much as they can get. You're describing sociopaths here not just rational people. Rational people can use a higher-level reasoning framework than their short-term personal convenience.

6stringmerc 11y ago
I find this distinction important and relevant, akin to the maintenance of the "social fabric" of courtesy. Like a water fountain on a hot day, if there's a line, it takes a special kind of mental composition to want to finish drinking then turn off the water and stand in the way of the next user. Or think that by not having a license plate it's totally cool to park in handicapped spaces...
greggman 11y ago
That's not my experience. Lots of people just don't think about it. This may sound like a dumb example but I went to a meetup once, expected 20-25 people. Arrived and there were 6 footlong sandwiches. Clearly with 20-25 people coming the organizers expected them to be cut into around 2-3 inch portions. At 3 inches that would be 24 mini sandwiches. For whatever reason 2 of my friends just helped themselves to a sandwich each. They are 2 of the nicest people I know. I never asked what was going through their minds. I assume they just didn't think about or thought first come first served or something. There's no way I'd describe them as sociopaths. I've seen similar behavior quite often. People don't think or maybe they view the world in someway where there apparent selfish behavior is rational. Next time someone else will be first or something. Today is my turn, someone else will get it tomorrow. Or maybe they're just not thinking, like the 50% of people who stand in front of a train door or an elevator door to board blocking the people trying to get off or the people that stand and have a discussion the moment they step of the escalator blocking everyone about to exit. I don't think those people are sociopaths but they are being unintentionally selfish
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- 11y ago